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Atheism

92 posts
  1. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    12/26/2012 2:12 PM
    Been doing quite a bit of reading over the holiday; one book in particular The Portable Atheist by Hitchens. He covers quotes from Atheists through the centuries. I wish I had taken notes but one quote that was either from Karl Marx, Mark Twain or Sigmund Freud. As diverse a group of atheist as one will ever meet.
    To paraphrase " an atheist is essentially the same as someone who is colour blind....No matter how many times an other individual tries to describe to you how beautiful and wonderful the colour "RED" is, it simply can not register, as the colour blind individual has no concept of what red is!"

    It brought back a number of memories from the time I was being indoctrinated in the Baptist Church as a youth. I remember going home and talking to my mother after a very fire and brimstone Sunday School class. I had been told I had two choices in life. One was to be burned in eternal damnation and related pain. The other was to be born again and live eternally in the bliss and goodness that Heaven offered.

    I had pondered the choices and said to my mom. " Ya know, the heaven and Hell thing is all well and good, but the thing that scares the bejeasus out of me is this concept of eternity! What does forever mean? I can't picture it and I'm quite certain I don't want to live it in either place "forever". I get freak out just thinking about the infinite universe let alone thinking about living forever. I don't think I want to do that mom!"

    For several years onward I tried like the Lord, to accept the Lord. While those around me seemed to be having a conversation with someone, I just found myself sitting in a void and no matter how hard I tried, it just didn't seem to want to grab hold of me. I finally bailed altogether.

    After reading the part about atheism being like colour blindness, it all struck home. I finally realized, I'm Lord Blind and regardless of persistence, my brain is not wired that way and there is nothing I can do about it.
    While I tend to mock primarily Christianity in all of it's forms, it is really only to do with my familiarity with that belief system. Should I have been born in Japan, I think the same thing would have happened with Taoism and all the rest.

    My only salvation seems to be in science and even in saying that, "the infinity thing" still scares the bejeasus out of me. If it were not for verifiable proof of such things, I would likely run screaming into the forest at science as well.

    In a closing note to those believers on the forum: Don't feel like you've down a poor job in your duty to convert the heathen. There are just a large number of us out there, that even with all the effort at our disposal, will never be able to see the colour "Red"



  2. Jack Stephens
    Jack Stephens avatar
    0 posts
    12/26/2012 3:12 PM
    How the hell do you think I feel, I'm a damn right wing atheist who had to listen to a bunch of bleeding heart left wing Christians over Christmas dinner! I'd rather been waterboarded. A couple of reading suggestion from a fellow heathen.

    Betrand Russell- Why I am not a Christian
    Ibn Warraq- Why I am not a Muslim (see what I did there!)
    Richard Dawkins- The God Delusion (kind-of a douche, but we need all the help we can get)
    Sam Harris- Letter to a Christian Nation (the Eddie Haskell of atheism)
    Christopher Hitchens - God is not Great (not sure if Hitch knew the publisher would capitalize the deity)

    Brad Stephens
    Assistant Superintendent
    King and Bear- World Gold Village



  3. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    12/26/2012 3:12 PM
    Nice to meet you Brad. Welcome...That was too funny



  4. Rosenthal Gregg
    Rosenthal Gregg avatar
    12/26/2012 7:12 PM
    You don't have to believe in anything but life itself, try to read some of the Buddist writings from the Dali Lama it might open your mind to other ideologies. I am a conservative Jew who prays hard on the Sabbath, been through a tough medical battle fighting epilepsy, brain surgery, now a winner in that battle. Loving life returned to doing what I love maintaining high end turf for golfers to enjoy the game of golf! I do pray hard on the Sabbath! But I also do not push it on anyone else, and do believe in open minded ideology! I read the Dali Lama writings often and follow his open minded writing, statements about life in the modern world often. Just look him up on line and see for yourself, it is another outlook different than other religions. Simply put Peace, Love , Understanding, Freedom for all. Nobody has to believe in anything it is truly a personal choice! JMO...

    GreggR



  5. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    12/27/2012 11:12 AM
    Mark Twain spent more time researching and writing what he called his best book "Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc" this book is very spiritual and a good read.

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."
    ― Stuart Chase (well known socialist)


    Anyway this is sort of a silly discussion to have on a Superintendents forum. Come on; we know that the only really important things in this world are the greens are rolling 11 feet, the bunkers are firm, and the ball washer on 14 tee has some juice in it.

    Merry Christmas,

    Sean



  6. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/27/2012 11:12 AM
    Sean Hoolehan, CGCS said: "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."― Stuart Chase


    This is a very cool quote although I do not think the conversation is silly. As an evangelical Christian I consider my life to be a ministry. My parents were not religious. God has chosen to make the proof plain as day to me personally. I don't know why he would choose me, but I do know that He is not as exclusive regarding heaven-goers as many would have you believe.



  7. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    12/27/2012 1:12 PM
    Sean Hoolehan, CGCS said:

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."
    ― Stuart Chase (well know socialist)




    If no proof is necessary, then the belief is admittedly based on nothing but a subjective desire not to admit being wrong. If it is not possible to convince a nonbeliever it is because there is no evidence and no reason to believe it in the first place.

    And I'm not entirely convinced that Stuart Chase was referring to religion. Cute quote though.

    "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens (well known dude)

    "You can not convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it is based on a deep-seated need to believe." -Carl Sagan(Well known star child)

    Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Friedrich Nietzsche(well known dead German)



  8. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/27/2012 3:12 PM
    Keith Lamb, fascinating name for an atheist. I believe in providence, not coincidence!



  9. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    12/27/2012 4:12 PM
    I do not think the conversation is silly.

    My point is that even an atheist (or more likely agnostic) like Mark Twain spent years searching the meaning of life. It's a noble pursuit, but unimportant in the big scheme of things. Faith in God is difficult to debate, harder to live. I really only know my Christian faith. Its enough for me. People who put their faith in a deity or put their faith in science have one thing in common they both believe in something. There are lots of great apologetic forums on the internet to fully debate religion.

    Sean



  10. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    12/27/2012 6:12 PM
    Sean Hoolehan, CGCS said: I do not think the conversation is silly.

    My point is that even an atheist (or more likely agnostic) like Mark Twain spent years searching the meaning of life. It's a noble pursuit, but unimportant in the big scheme of things. Faith in God is difficult to debate, harder to live. I really only know my Christian faith. Its enough for me. People who put their faith in a deity or put their faith in science have one thing in common they both believe in something. There are lots of great apologetic forums on the internet to fully debate religion.

    Sean

    i get it Sean, my only point is that it is easy for some to see it and adopt it and while both of us will look at the other and think they are being obstinate, the truth is likely that our brains are wired differently.
    Not better or worse....just different



  11. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    12/28/2012 10:12 AM
    Larry Allan said:


    i get it Sean, my only point is that it is easy for some to see it and adopt it and while both of us will look at the other and think they are being obstinate, the truth is likely that our brains are wired differently.
    Not better or worse....just different


    Point Well put and I agree.

    Sean



  12. Ronald Kirkman
    Ronald Kirkman avatar
    40 posts
    12/28/2012 8:12 PM
    Greetings;

    For those who believe no explanation is necessary.

    Foe those who do not believe no explanation will do.

    Capt. Kirk



  13. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/29/2012 1:12 PM
    Not that it should matter to anyone what I think.

    I believe that God isn't a separate entity residing on a higher spiritual or astral plane, but rather the common energy in the Universe that exists in all of us. If you want to find God, and He is wonderful and He is in all of us, but look inward, not outward. Have faith in yourself.

    I believe that in fact this is what Jesus and the other Prophets were preaching all along. When Jesus says that those with faith will be saved, it meant those with faith in their own power and goodness.



  14. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    12/30/2012 10:12 AM
    People tend to believe that without a God there would be no morality, no rules to live by, things would fall apart.
    The reality is that we, I believe are born moral. We learn to share, cooperate, help because it benefits us back.
    There are morality lessons in the Bible, but you really have to pick and choose...especially the Old Testament. I doubt Sean, Scotty and Sandy will ever head San Fransisco to burn the place down because there are a lot of gay folk there. They have a moral system that supersedes bible directives when they go against the "personal code of conduct"
    Even the New Testament demand Jesus's followers to reject their families and follow him. That sound more like a cult and few have a personal moral code that would allow them to do it even if they claim to be literal bible believing folk. The God of the New Testament actually sacrifices his own son, for the good of humanity. A moral human living by a personal code, would never consider sending one of his family to sure death regardless of reason. If there was a true Omnipotent God, he could have just as easily "dropped a writ" to forgive mankind.

    Although Steve O's code is more acceptable to me, It is still a little too supernatural for my liking



  15. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/30/2012 2:12 PM
    Red,

    Is someone trying to "save" you or is this just a subject that remains at the forefront of your mind. Either way it is obvious this is something you think about. In my spiritual world the father, son and holy spirit are all one in the same. The father took on flesh and paid our debts. Do I fully understand this? No, not at all. I accept it because for some reason my heavenly father has chosen to make himself perfectly clear to me in other ways. Sandy, Sean and I would not agree on some very basic tenets of religious doctrine. In my world there is nothing that I can do to deserve forgiveness that my savior Jesus has not already done. This is also true for you Red. It's in there. Be blessed. Why not?

    Scott



  16. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    12/30/2012 3:12 PM
    I believe it.

    [youtube">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LR2hFP1yb4[/youtube">



  17. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/30/2012 3:12 PM
    Larry Allan said:
    Although Steve O's code is more acceptable to me, It is still a little too supernatural for my liking


    There's nothing "supernatural" about it.

    Do you deny there is energy in the universe? Do you deny that this energy is a "natural" phenomenon? Do you deny that this energy is ultimately responsible for our existence?

    It's all right there.



  18. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    12/30/2012 9:12 PM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: Red,

    Is someone trying to "save" you or is this just a subject that remains at the forefront of your mind. Either way it is obvious this is something you think about. In my spiritual world the father, son and holy spirit are all one in the same. The father took on flesh and paid our debts. Do I fully understand this? No, not at all. I accept it because for some reason my heavenly father has chosen to make himself perfectly clear to me in other ways. Sandy, Sean and I would not agree on some very basic tenets of religious doctrine. In my world there is nothing that I can do to deserve forgiveness that my savior Jesus has not already done. This is also true for you Red. It's in there. Be blessed. Why not?

    Scott

    I think about it a lot Scotty, but I don't really dwell on it. I just find it an interesting discussion. I'm currently trying to digitalize 40 years of Kodachrome, 4 slides at a time.It is more than enough to make anyone ponder eternity



  19. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    1/3/2013 6:01 AM
    Yeah, yeah, yeah....trying to solve the makings of life and the universe. But what I really want to know is why in the year 2000 and something is anyone still using film? Especially a hack like Red.

    BTW when did the Dalai convert to Taoism?



  20. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/3/2013 7:01 AM
    Ronald Conard, CGCS said: Yeah, yeah, yeah....trying to solve the makings of life and the universe. But what I really want to know is why in the year 2000 and something is anyone still using film? Especially a hack like Red.

    BTW when did the Dalai convert to Taoism?


    I still have a camera that uses film, can't say I use it much, I think the roll of film in it now is about 2 if not 3 years old......I might better fire off the rest of the frames before no one will develop it?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  21. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/3/2013 10:01 AM
    I still have a camera that uses film, can't say I use it much, I think the roll of film in it now is about 2 if not 3 years old......I might better fire off the rest of the frames before no one will develop it?

    Mel


    Maybe the Baby Jesus will develop it for you.
    ....if you've been good.
    ....and you're not homosexual
    ....or any other color than white
    ....or female
    ....and you believe in magic



  22. James Gray
    James Gray avatar
    1 posts
    1/4/2013 9:01 PM
    Apparently we are reasonable and civil beings, us superintendents, this is the most polite conversation I have ever seen about such a controversial subject.... well done.



  23. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    1/4/2013 10:01 PM
    James Gray said: Apparently we are reasonable and civil beings, us superintendents, this is the most polite conversation I have ever seen about such a controversial subject.... well done.


    I wish this were true, but it is not. I am never going to convince a religious person that there are not hoops to jump through and tithes to be paid to get to heaven and they are never going to convince me that what Jesus did was not enough. If what He did is not enough I am with Red, Keith and Steve.



  24. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/5/2013 6:01 AM
    So, apparently James, Scott is of the opinion that it is not reasonable to disagree with him.

    Regards,

    Steve



  25. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/5/2013 8:01 AM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:
    James Gray said: Apparently we are reasonable and civil beings, us superintendents, this is the most polite conversation I have ever seen about such a controversial subject.... well done.


    I wish this were true, but it is not. I am never going to convince a religious person that there are not hoops to jump through and tithes to be paid to get to heaven and they are never going to convince me that what Jesus did was not enough. If what He did is not enough I am with Red, Keith and Steve.


    What do you mean that people try to convince you that Jesus did not do enough?



  26. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/5/2013 9:01 AM
    I have no interest in trying to convince anyone that anything Jesus supposedly did was enough or not. I don't believe in magic, so I don't believe that Jesus did anything supernatural. If you choose to believe that and it gives you comfort, it's alright with me, just quit insisting that everybody has to buy into the same magic that you do.

    Regards,

    Steve



  27. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    1/5/2013 11:01 AM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: just quit insisting that everybody has to buy into the same magic that you do.



    But if there is no insistence, you lose out on the whole premise of sin/repentance. Without sin/repentance the meaning of Jesus's life would be rightfully called into question. And with no valid Jesus figure as an example of God's love, everything else starts to unravel.

    It's one of the tenets of western religion I find hardest to approach. This "DO, OR ELSE" mindset relies so much on trust in opinions and interpretations over thousands of years. I'm asked to trust in the 'dreams' of somebody who claims they're a prophet? They were told something by an angel or god, and that's good enough? -- but it's not just the dreams; it's the interpretation of those dreams by a scribe and then the re-writing of the scribes work by a pope or a king who wanted them to read a certain way, etc.. That's not good enough. It's half-baked. Man gets involved in explaining god to other men = game over, for me at least.

    Life is serious business and I don't know if any religion is good enough or trustworthy enough to cover all of it. And by trustworthy, I mean devoid of man and mans hand in devising, reporting, and sculpting it. Anyone asks me to take their word for anything that serious needs to have some game -- and I see less and less game as belief systems age and the world (and man)is better understood.



  28. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    1/5/2013 11:01 AM
    Similar feelings to SteveO. I'm much more convinced and comforted that the story of Jesus, like the story (novel) Siddhartha is an allegory for larger questions about self and society. I don't think the people who were writing stuff down were stupid or completely making it up. I think they were trying to convey a message about the meaning of truth and self.

    I think harm comes in, as it often does, when social conditions become unjust enough that the only thing people own is their beliefs. When the powers that be (you pick the era) realize they could control the masses peacefully and economically if they owned and controlled those beliefs, they embraced them.
    Simple maths. :)



  29. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    1/5/2013 12:01 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:
    James Gray said: Apparently we are reasonable and civil beings, us superintendents, this is the most polite conversation I have ever seen about such a controversial subject.... well done.


    I wish this were true, but it is not. I am never going to convince a religious person that there are not hoops to jump through and tithes to be paid to get to heaven and they are never going to convince me that what Jesus did was not enough. If what He did is not enough I am with Red, Keith and Steve.


    What do you mean that people try to convince you that Jesus did not do enough?


    First of all, I did not bring up the subject, so I am not trying to convince people who have no belief in God. Your anger is obviously personal to your history and is hidden from me. It is fine with me if you disagree with me.

    Clays Question: Jesus said, "Whoever believes in me...", not, "Whoever gets immersed in water...", not, "Whoever loves the Pope...", not, "Whoever tithes to their church...", not on and on and on.



  30. James Gray
    James Gray avatar
    1 posts
    1/5/2013 2:01 PM
    i juat meant the dialogue was respectful. usually any debate of divisive opinions gets nasty real quickly, an incessant name calling ensues



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