"Gen Next Complete A and B" products Cancel The title field is required!

1. Andrew Bucceri

   

   3 posts
   
   1/29/2013 2:01 PM

   Does anyone from the mid-Atlantic region or the Northeast have any experience with a product called "Gen Next A&B". It is a 2-part fertilizer product that has to be mixed together and then of course diluted with water for each application. It's biggest claim is that it doesn't kill poa, but significantly reduces poa population by making the bentgrass plant stonger and more aggressive to where it will eventually just crowd it out and other undesirable weeds and species. It's a program that calls for 8 oz/M every 2 weeks and after a couple years stands of poa are reported to be reduced by as much as 80-90%. Other benefits include less water usage, deeper root structure and reduction in pesticide and fungicide use. It also claims to replace all granular fertilizer applications. I would be very interested to know other people's experiences with this if any at all.
   
   Andrew Bucceri
   Hamilton Trails Golf Club

   
   
   
   
2. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   1/29/2013 5:01 PM

   Sounds too good to be true?

   
   
   
   
3. Joe Wachter

   

   5 posts
   
   1/29/2013 7:01 PM

   Andrew,
   
   Use 20M sq/ft last season on 4 of my worst greens. Jury still out for me regarding the poa benefits but I liked what it did to my turf. Nice color, turf was healthy. Growth was not too crazy. I did use primo during the summer to keep the growth reasonable. Rest of the greens were on paclobutrazol but I back off in the summer when the heat kicks in. Can't make any statement regarding the fungicide reductions etc.
   
   I used no other fertilizers on these greens except for beginning and end of season. Probably will double my area this year. Not overly expensive which is why I'm continuing on with the program. Sounds like some pretty significant positives from some of the supers that have used it on the west coast with high poa percentages.

   
   
   
   
4. Rollie Dean

   
   1/30/2013 8:01 AM

   We used A&B in 2011 with great results. A lot less disease pressure with no preventative sprays, and a huge reduction in poa.
   We did use high rates on our #1 green though, since that particular green was around 70-80% poa. By the end of last season it was <25% poa and the bent was thriving.
   
   Prior to that we were using Anderson's products with a lot of preventative apps.

   
   
   
   
5. Brian Nettz

   

   0 posts
   
   1/30/2013 9:01 AM

   I am starting my second season now with this product. Although I am not Mid-Atlantic, it has produced some very positive results on the majority of our greens. This is a terrible bent climate and it has really made the bent creep tremendously over just a 6 month period on all but my most shaded greens. Even on the shaded greens my poa has done much better. The best explanation of it is that they have reproduced the microbiology of the soil under vigorous bentgrass. It has all the components needed to give the bent exactly what it needs to be perform at its peak, and just enough of that will maintain healthy poa. In short, it is PEDs designed for bent to perform like Lance Armstrong and just enough PEDs for the poa to perform like the rest of the USPS team.
   
   It has helped us reduce our fertilizer usage on the greens as well. We are extremely limited in our pesticide options and struggle with sunlight issues both from fog and shade. We even have issues now with fungicide resistance. Since our chemical options are so limited we have rotation issues.
   
   I personally found it to be another valuable tool in my management toolbox for a reasonable price.
   
   Brian Nettz CGCS
   Presidio Golf Course
   San Francisco

   
   
   
   
6. Frank Zamazal

   

   0 posts
   
   1/30/2013 12:01 PM

   I am starting my third full season on A&B having initially applied it autumn of 2010. I can honestly say that I have witnessed a HUGE reduction in poa on my greens and A&B has made a monumental difference in surface quality since starting the regimen. Tim Brink and GenNext have something special with this product combination. I learned about this product through Turfnet Forum...and I said it before and I'll say it again...I am happy I took the plunge. There is no downside to using this product...if you are results oriented, then the long lasting color speaks for itself...over time...the poa reduction will speak louder...after a couple of years....it will be screaming.

   
   
   
   
7. Matthew Whalen

   

   0 posts
   
   1/30/2013 2:01 PM

   I just finished my first season on the GenNext A&B and I have to say our greens have never been better. I am from Southeast Wyoming at 6700 feet of elevation, with our arid climate and wind growing turf can be a challenge to say the least. We have 16 pushup greens that are original to our 1917 layout and four sand based greens that have all been redone within the last ten years. I would say our percentage of poa is 80-90%, we have been interseeding for four summers with limited results, but interseed june, july, august of this year we saw a huge jump in bentgrass activity this growing season. I cant tell you if POA was reduced but I will tell you bentgrass is more previlent now. We also saw no seedheads this fall, and after a 3/4 X 8 inch aerification our greens healed in three days! For the first time I actually had members question if I truly aerified! IMAGE THAT
   
   We also had no fungicide applications this year (with the exception of snow mold applications)while in previuos years we had to make two or three through the growing season, we also were able to cut out wetting agents and reduced primo use by half.
   
   I look forward to the coming season and wish I could share pictures of my greens right now under the covers its like it is still summer, unlike anything I have ever seen!
   
   Without a doubt one of the best moves I have ever made as a golf course superintendent.

   
   
   
   
8. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   1/30/2013 7:01 PM

   Well, I may have spoken too soon about it being to good to be true, but I am wondering...is this product very high in iron? Is that why you guys are seeing a poa reduction? Did you see the article on Turfnet about iron layering? Obviously, I don't have a poa problem, but it is all very interesting...
   
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   
   
9. Andrew Cross

   

   5 posts
   
   1/30/2013 7:01 PM

   Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: Well, I may have spoken too soon about it being to good to be true, but I am wondering...is this product very high in iron? Is that why you guys are seeing a poa reduction? Did you see the article on Turfnet about iron layering? Obviously, I don't have a poa problem, but it is all very interesting...
   
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   I have not seen this article as I am not a member of turfnet, any chance you could forward it to me. It sounds very intriguing. turfgrass @ gmail . com
   
   I've been following this thread closely as I'm very interested in this product as well.

   
   
   
   
10. Rollie Dean

    
    1/30/2013 8:01 PM

    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: Well, I may have spoken too soon about it being to good to be true, but I am wondering...is this product very high in iron? Is that why you guys are seeing a poa reduction? Did you see the article on Turfnet about iron layering? Obviously, I don't have a poa problem, but it is all very interesting...
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    There's very little iron in the "A" and no iron in the "B". I think it's around 0.70 percent Fe in "A". So iron is NOT the secret ingredient. At the 8oz/m rate you're putting about 0.0059 lbs of iron on your greens. Not enough to affect the poa.

    
    
    
    
11. Andrew Bucceri

    

    3 posts
    
    1/30/2013 8:01 PM

    Dean, i read your course's blog about the results you got with this product and saw the nice photos of your greens and how they progressed throughout the year. Not trying to bring up bad memories, but that brown patch outbreak and pythium you had on a particular green was not due to the Gen Next products making your turf too vulnerable to those disease conditions, was it?? It sounds like there was just a lot of disease pressure that caused that?? Also does it matter what type of nozzles are used to apply this?? i have been using air induction the last few years and like how they work. What do you use??

    
    
    
    
12. Rollie Dean

    
    1/30/2013 9:01 PM

    Andrew Bucceri said: Dean, i read your course's blog about the results you got with this product and saw the nice photos of your greens and how they progressed throughout the year. Not trying to bring up bad memories, but that brown patch outbreak and pythium you had on a particular green was not due to the Gen Next products making your turf too vulnerable to those disease conditions, was it?? It sounds like there was just a lot of disease pressure that caused that?? Also does it matter what type of nozzles are used to apply this?? i have been using air induction the last few years and like how they work. What do you use??

    
    
    Andrew, no that particular green was always susceptible to disease. Poor drainage and surrounded by trees, it's just a disaster waiting to happen. But everyone in our area that year got hammered by brown patch. If anything, the GenNext made the situation better, especially recovery-wise.
    
    I used flat fan nozzles, since they seemed to work best with our sprayer setup. I don't know what other GenNext users use. And I don't know if they recommend a particular nozzle type. Maybe one of the Tims can chime in.

    
    
    
    
13. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    1/31/2013 6:01 AM

    It wasn't turfnet, it was Golfdom magazine page 55
    http://editiondigital.net/iphone/?i=142674&p=57#_m0
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
14. Andrew Bucceri

    

    3 posts
    
    1/31/2013 7:01 PM

    Really sounds like everyone here has all positive things to say about this. For me, the hardest thing about doing this is giving up the normal granular and water soluble applications I normally do. It makes me kind of nervous just cutting all that out. but most everyone here has said they HAVE cut those apps. out, and if not just done them at the beginning and end of the season. Has anyone taken soil tests after using the products to see how the soil chemistry has improved or changed?? Does it alter ph, CEC, base saturation, things like that? Also, When using this product is it compatible to mix in the tank with most fungicides, PGRs and wetting agents?? For example, could I mix it with Paclobutrazol, Insignia, curalan, chlorothalonil, Revolution wetting agent?? for me this would be great for the spring aeration to help everything heal much quicker so the poa, with all those ugly seedheads, doesn't grow faster than the bent when the temps are still cool. Looking for as much info. and feedback as possible here. Give me everything you got because this product has not been introduced to N.J. quite yet.

    
    
    
    
15. Rollie Dean

    
    1/31/2013 8:01 PM

    I cut out most apps not because of choice but of lack of money. But it turned out I didn't need any of the other stuff. (Except for the aforementioned brown patch outbreak). I did see a rise in pH on our number 1 green and I had asked Tim Brink about it but he said that's the first he had heard of it. I was going to do further soil tests but time and money ran out. And we had numerous pH issues with that green anyway.
    
    It's recommended NOT to tank-mix with fungicides or fertilizers. You want the microbial action of the GenNext to do its stuff, so fungicides defeat the purpose. We used paclo and Primo the year before but those always went out separate. I don't think I'd tank-mix anything else with the GenNext is what I'm saying.

    
    
    
    
16. Kevin Tansey

    

    0 posts
    
    2/1/2013 7:02 AM

    Andrew Bucceri said: Really sounds like everyone here has all positive things to say about this. For me, the hardest thing about doing this is giving up the normal granular and water soluble applications I normally do. It makes me kind of nervous just cutting all that out. but most everyone here has said they HAVE cut those apps. out, and if not just done them at the beginning and end of the season. Has anyone taken soil tests after using the products to see how the soil chemistry has improved or changed?? Does it alter ph, CEC, base saturation, things like that? Also, When using this product is it compatible to mix in the tank with most fungicides, PGRs and wetting agents?? For example, could I mix it with Paclobutrazol, Insignia, curalan, chlorothalonil, Revolution wetting agent?? for me this would be great for the spring aeration to help everything heal much quicker so the poa, with all those ugly seedheads, doesn't grow faster than the bent when the temps are still cool. Looking for as much info. and feedback as possible here. Give me everything you got because this product has not been introduced to N.J. quite yet.

    
    
    
    Andrew,
    
    We are interested in this product also. Reading the GenNext blog they are looking to have a distributor in the Philly area which would be nice. From what I have read you shouldn't tank mix anything with this product. A buddy of mine in California is using the C & D products, this allows him to still put out the nutrients he desires from what I understand. For me I would like to try it on our putting greens first set up with a control area to see the results for myself before going all in. For the guys who have used A & B what is the price per acre??
    
    Kevin Tansey
    Stone Harbor Golf Club
    Cape May Court House, NJ

    
    
    
    
17. Joe Wachter

    

    5 posts
    
    2/1/2013 7:02 AM

    They also recommend taking out your nozzle screens which I do. I think a time or two I didn't and had a little issue but not serious. Comes in 5 gallon pales and will settle a little so you need to shake well. Make sure you have adequate agitation when mixing which is like most products. As Dean, I would usually spray the product separate. Usually put it down in the off week of my other applications. I went all fall with 3 of the 4 greens with no fungicide applications. Normally would have some dollar spot working but the fertility levels which amount to about .25# n/m during the season probably assisted with this as I'm assuming so of the other products.

    
    
    
    
18. Andrew Bucceri

    

    3 posts
    
    2/1/2013 8:02 AM

    Joe, does each product, A & B come in its own 5 gal. pale?? And u said that the rate you were using works out to a 1/4 lb of N/M?? what spray rate of the product provided that? Was it the 4, 8, or 16 oz rate?? That's really good to know not to mix it with other products like fungicides etc. I'm glad I asked.
    
    Kevin, have you seen any reports about this product from Rutgers?? if you have read something, let me know where you saw it?? Glad you chimed in, i am right up the road from you in Mays Landing. So you would definitely be using the A & B products too?? What % of poa do you have n your greens there??

    
    
    
    
19. Rollie Dean

    
    2/1/2013 9:02 AM

    Not to speak for Joe, but yes, the A & B come in separate 5 gallon pails. And there is some settling, so as Joe said make sure you have good agitation going before you dump them in your tank. I would dilute the mixture in spare 5 gallon buckets before I put it in my tank to help with the settling issue. And taking the screens out helps too.
    
    To get 1/4 lb of N/M you would need the 16oz rate. Also I had no problem with going out at 1 gal/M.

    
    
    
    
20. Frank Zamazal

    

    0 posts
    
    2/1/2013 11:02 AM

    Andrew Bucceri said: Really sounds like everyone here has all positive things to say about this. For me, the hardest thing about doing this is giving up the normal granular and water soluble applications I normally do. It makes me kind of nervous just cutting all that out. but most everyone here has said they HAVE cut those apps. out, and if not just done them at the beginning and end of the season. Has anyone taken soil tests after using the products to see how the soil chemistry has improved or changed?? Does it alter ph, CEC, base saturation, things like that? Also, When using this product is it compatible to mix in the tank with most fungicides, PGRs and wetting agents?? For example, could I mix it with Paclobutrazol, Insignia, curalan, chlorothalonil, Revolution wetting agent?? for me this would be great for the spring aeration to help everything heal much quicker so the poa, with all those ugly seedheads, doesn't grow faster than the bent when the temps are still cool. Looking for as much info. and feedback as possible here. Give me everything you got because this product has not been introduced to N.J. quite yet.

    
    
    I would say amend with granular products during aeration...gypsum, SOP, KMAG etc...but use the foliar N from A&B. As for tank mixing...say away from Trimmit, fungicides, and any "hot" wetting agents like Revolution...no bueno. I have gone over a tank mixing brew with the GenNext staff to include PRIMO MAXX for weekly applications and get about a 1/10th of a pound of N with it...no post irrigation until the evening cycles. I use Delavan RA15 nozzles and put out 2.5 gallons per 1000 sqft.
    
    Rates per 1000 sqft:
    6oz A&B
    4oz 12-0-0 iron
    3oz Black Strap Molasses
    3oz Algae Green
    2oz Tricure AD
    .125oz Primo Maxx
    .125oz Superthrive

    
    
    
    
21. Joe Wachter

    

    5 posts
    
    2/2/2013 12:02 PM

    Andrew Bucceri said: Joe, does each product, A & B come in its own 5 gal. pale?? And u said that the rate you were using works out to a 1/4 lb of N/M?? what spray rate of the product provided that? Was it the 4, 8, or 16 oz rate?? That's really good to know not to mix it with other products like fungicides etc. I'm glad I asked.
    
    Kevin, have you seen any reports about this product from Rutgers?? if you have read something, let me know where you saw it?? Glad you chimed in, i am right up the road from you in Mays Landing. So you would definitely be using the A & B products too?? What % of poa do you have n your greens there??

    
    
    The 8 oz rate is the dominant rate in the program from the protocol they sent me which gives me .1219 #n/m from the A&B together per application, 1/4# per month or every 4 weeks. . It does get cut in 1/2 during the worst month of the summer. I have used with Primo like Frank and water in at night on occasion when I needed a regulator application and the timing called for the application. I think you do need to regulate in someway or you will have inconsistent growth between your various greens and speeds will differ. I did only four greens. As Frank, I do some of the micro packages at the beginning of the season during aeration and add calcium and other necessary apps during the season as needed but usually in other sprays, seaweed, fish emulsion etc.

    
    
    
    
22. Kevin Tansey

    

    0 posts
    
    2/3/2013 9:02 AM

    Andrew Bucceri said: Joe, does each product, A & B come in its own 5 gal. pale?? And u said that the rate you were using works out to a 1/4 lb of N/M?? what spray rate of the product provided that? Was it the 4, 8, or 16 oz rate?? That's really good to know not to mix it with other products like fungicides etc. I'm glad I asked.
    
    Kevin, have you seen any reports about this product from Rutgers?? if you have read something, let me know where you saw it?? Glad you chimed in, i am right up the road from you in Mays Landing. So you would definitely be using the A & B products too?? What % of poa do you have n your greens there??

    
    
    
    Andrew, I havent seen anything out of rutgers yet. We are looking at both A & B and the C & D. I like having the control of the nutrient needs. We are using Dr. York for monthly tissue testing and yearly soil testing and have seen very good results with the nutrition program we are on through him. We are USGA spec greens and have on average throughout the course 60/40 poa to bent but we are seeing some good bent growth with Dr Yorks' recommendations.
    
    For those of you using the GenNext products, are any of you doing any tissue testing throughout the program and have you seen any results through tissue testing? When is your application start and end dates through the season, as in before aerification, after aerification, or year long apps etc?
    
    Kevin Tansey
    Stone Harbor Golf Club
    Cape May Court House, NJ

    
    
    
    
23. Joe Wachter

    

    5 posts
    
    2/4/2013 8:02 AM

    I've not tissue tested. Our program went 15 applications every 14 days from end of March to end of October. Aeration had already been completed in spring.

    
    
    
    
24. Kevin Tansey

    

    0 posts
    
    2/8/2013 6:02 PM

    In cooperation with GenNext and our local distributor Fisher & Son Co. in Southern NJ, we are going to be doing some trial apps of the Select C & D on two acres of greens starting this spring. I am a little skeptical of the claims of what the product can do but we are open minded and hoping it does do what everyone else is saying they see from the use of it.
    
    We chose the C & D because we didn't want to give up or fertility program entirely since we have seen some great results from what we are using. We are going to look at this addition to the program as I have seen it talked about earlier as that its the PED for our greens. Always looking for that "edge".
    
    I hope to share all good about the product but will still be sharing the bad if any.......hoping for no bad. The one "bad" I may see with it as of now is the price. It's a little on the high side but with that said, if it lives up to all the claims it just might be worth it.
    
    
    Kevin Tansey
    Stone Harbor Golf Club
    Cape May Court House, NJ

    
    
    
    
25. Sean McCue

    

    0 posts
    
    2/11/2013 2:02 PM

    Kevin,
    
    I would shy away from the C & D I tried it 2 years ago for the very same reason you are, wanting to control your own NPK. After a season I saw little or no change with the C & D combo. Seems to be a synergistic effect with whatever NPK they are using in the A & B combo. Everybody who is seeing positive results are using A & B, I have now let go of my concerns about the NPK rates that come along with the product. They are pretty minor at the end of the day and the result seems to be better with it.

    
    
    
    
26. Kevin Tansey

    

    0 posts
    
    2/11/2013 5:02 PM

    Sean McCue said: Kevin,
    
    I would shy away from the C & D I tried it 2 years ago for the very same reason you are, wanting to control your own NPK. After a season I saw little or no change with the C & D combo. Seems to be a synergistic effect with whatever NPK they are using in the A & B combo. Everybody who is seeing positive results are using A & B, I have now let go of my concerns about the NPK rates that come along with the product. They are pretty minor at the end of the day and the result seems to be better with it.

    
    
    
    Sean,
    
    Thanks for the info. Are you still currently using the A & B? What pros and cons have you seen with using the GenNext program? I'm curious to know if you have seen the results the product claims and what others are seeing.

    
    
    
    
27. Sean McCue

    

    0 posts
    
    2/14/2013 10:02 AM

    Kevin,
    
    We are still playing with it but on a smaller scale now. As far as results go I can't honestly say one way or another at this point. My Poa here has really changed over the years and now seems to be more resistant to anything I try to damage it. For the first 14 years here I hammered it with TGR at high weekly rates (.25 AI/A) and it did a pretty good job of keeping the Poa at bay. In the last 4 years I have watched my Poa populations explode since switching to Cutless after the Poa has appeared to develop as resistance to the TGR.
    
    Along the lines of resistance last fall we started with PoaCure ( 4 apps at labeled rate)and I saw no damage to the Poa from that either. I have heard the damage typically occurs in the spring, but I have seen visible damage to Poa at a neighboring course from a similar protocol. I am still remaining hopeful to see some damage this spring in my Poa.
    
    Not sure if I have altered our Poa from years of manipulation into something something of a beast, but I remain hopeful of new chemistries to once again help out. If all else fails fumigate and start over, which is the road we are beginning to head down....

    
    
    
    
28. Edward Doda

    

    0 posts
    
    5/21/2013 8:05 AM

    Wondering after the appearance of this topic if more supers have started using the A+B on their greens. If so, what kind of results are you seeing and has anyone found a reduction in other materials sprayed such as wetting agents/fungicides?....thanks
    
    ed doda an hour north of toronto

    
    
    
    
29. Dave Birrer

    

    0 posts
    
    5/22/2013 7:05 AM

    When I was introduced to this product, I was definitely skeptical of what I was told it could do. After reading this thread, I thought I should give it a go. I've made 7 apps now at the 8oz rate and I'm impressed. I have dominant plus bent and it's "ALIVE". The color is great and the ball roll is even better. I haven't applied any N since the first week of April after aerification and we're still getting about a half a bucket of grass (w/ triplex) every 4-5 greens or so mowing and rolling every other day (Trimmit is used). Based on what I'm seeing out of the bent this early in the season, I'm expecting some good results come November on the Poa front.

    
    
    
    
30. Kevin Tansey

    

    0 posts
    
    5/24/2013 9:05 PM

    Dave Birrer said: When I was introduced to this product, I was definitely skeptical of what I was told it could do. After reading this thread, I thought I should give it a go. I've made 7 apps now at the 8oz rate and I'm impressed. I have dominant plus bent and it's "ALIVE". The color is great and the ball roll is even better. I haven't applied any N since the first week of April after aerification and we're still getting about a half a bucket of grass (w/ triplex) every 4-5 greens or so mowing and rolling every other day (Trimmit is used). Based on what I'm seeing out of the bent this early in the season, I'm expecting some good results come November on the Poa front.

    
    
    
    Dave,
    
    Are you using the A & B? I'm confused on your statement that you have made 7 apps but say you haven't applied any N.
    
    I made 4 apps of A and B, two at 16 oz and two at 8 oz on 2A of greens and applied 7-0-0 ammonium sulfate and in the end there was no difference between ball roll, color, or rooting. I had high hopes for the product in the beginning and thought we were seeing a difference but in the end there wasn't. Maybe I might see something if I went all season long but it still took 6 weeks for my greens to heal from aerification with and without GenNext applied. For the price this is being sold for after 4 applications I would have expected it to out preform anything else I have been doing. I can't justify the cost of the product for the results it produced.