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1. Stephen Okula

   

   3 posts
   
   1/23/2015 10:01 AM

   Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
   Not trying to scoop Steve, but on the topic, I walked into a shop a few weeks ago. The mechanic was working on a mower and on his hip hung a hand gun. In the corner stood a shot gun. I left the golf course and stopped in a Subway down the road for lunch. There was a guy in line with a double shoulder pistol holster fully equipped with two hand guns. Should a terrorist visit that town he might be bargaining for more than he anticipated.

   
   
   Is it just me, or does it sound crazy to anyone else that a gold course mechanic should be all day with a pistol on his hip and a shotgun within reach? What is he expecting, the zombie apocalypse?
   
   I have worked on golf courses for over forty years, half in the States and half abroad, and never once have I heard of a golf course mechanic or anyone else on a golf course being put in a situation where he might need a gun.
   
   I have seen two fist fights between a mechanic and a crew member. In neither case was anyone seriously injured, and in both cases the combatants were able to put it behind them and continue working together, but I expect that if one of them was carrying a gun it might have been used in the heat of the moment with tragic and irreversible consequences.

   
   
   
   
2. Clay Putnam

   

   33 posts
   
   1/23/2015 11:01 AM

   Stephen Okula, CGCS said:

   Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
   Not trying to scoop Steve, but on the topic, I walked into a shop a few weeks ago. The mechanic was working on a mower and on his hip hung a hand gun. In the corner stood a shot gun. I left the golf course and stopped in a Subway down the road for lunch. There was a guy in line with a double shoulder pistol holster fully equipped with two hand guns. Should a terrorist visit that town he might be bargaining for more than he anticipated.

   
   
   Is it just me, or does it sound crazy to anyone else that a gold course mechanic should be all day with a pistol on his hip and a shotgun within reach? What is he expecting, the zombie apocalypse?
   
   I have worked on golf courses for over forty years, half in the States and half abroad, and never once have I heard of a golf course mechanic or anyone else on a golf course being put in a situation where he might need a gun.
   
   I have seen two fist fights between a mechanic and a crew member. In neither case was anyone seriously injured, and in both cases the combatants were able to put it behind them and continue working together, but I expect that if one of them was carrying a gun it might have been used in the heat of the moment with tragic and irreversible consequences.

   
   
   I guess I can see where you're coming from since seeing a civilian carrying a gun is not a normal occurrence for you. However, a person carrying or having a gun/rifle within reach is not uncommon for a lot of people in the states. I would imagine that those who do carry, legally, have a level of competency that pulling a gun and firing is not the first reaction when in a fist fight. I think it probably goes without saying that anyone picking a fight with a person who has a gun on his hip is not a bright idea.

   
   
   
   
3. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   1/23/2015 12:01 PM

   I have to say even here in SW MO where I understand many to have CCW permits, I haven't seen in my 11 years here but only once in a convince store where someone had a gun on their hip where he also didn't not have any thing on him identifying him as a police officer, even our sheriff deputy neighbor (now detective) when not in uniform does not have his gun displayed. I was a little nervous myself, and I would have been a little more working the counter of that store.
   
   I think it was Larry Wilmore on the Jon Stewart show that it seems ok for those people carrying their guns and rifles in to restaurants and grocery stores as a form of protest, but as Larry said, let a brother try that.
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
4. Christopher Thuer

   

   101 posts
   
   1/23/2015 4:01 PM

   Our assistant was a super at an inner city public course before we hired him. The course was in one of the worst areas of the country, just west of the 30th street and Keystone intersection on the map, Douglass Golf Course. http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crim ... p/3289645/ Within about a mile of the course there are at least a dozen murders a year. He was threatened with his life for aerating the greens his first year there. No wonder they hadn't aerated for the nine years before he got there.

   
   Chris Thuer, CGCS, Bear Slide Golf Club, Cicero, IN
   
   
5. Joel Rhodes

   

   0 posts
   
   1/26/2015 5:01 AM

   Mel Said: I have to say even here in SW MO where I understand many to have CCW permits, I haven't seen in my 11 years here but only once in a convince store where someone had a gun on their hip where he also didn't not have any thing on him identifying him as a police officer, even our sheriff deputy neighbor (now detective) when not in uniform does not have his gun displayed. I was a little nervous myself, and I would have been a little more working the counter of that store. I think it was Larry Wilmore on the Jon Stewart show that it seems ok for those people carrying their guns and rifles in to restaurants and grocery stores as a form of protest, but as Larry said, let a brother try that.
   Mel
   
   Sir are you trying to insinuate that there is some type of double standard at work here? I'm sure that what happened in that Wal-Mart in Ohio would have happened if a white man was talking on a cell phone also. I mean, Ohio is an open carry State and it was a BB Gun and there was no waving it around so,... Oh never mind I can not even type this with a straight face.

   
   
   
   
6. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   1/26/2015 1:01 PM

   So, to return to the original question.....if your office had already been firebombed once and you were under personal death threat,etc.etc.etc.
   The answer seems to be that you would rather hope that the killers better angels would take over and spare you.

   
   
   
   
7. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   1/26/2015 3:01 PM

   Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: So, to return to the original question.....if your office had already been firebombed once and you were under personal death threat,etc.etc.etc.
   The answer seems to be that you would rather hope that the killers better angels would take over and spare you.

   
   
   Going back to this particular situation, I myself would probably find another job/office to work in. Or I might take your advise and arm myself with proper training, otherwise I would be just as dangerous to my co-workers as any terrorist would.
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
8. Clay Putnam

   

   33 posts
   
   1/27/2015 12:01 AM

   Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:

   Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: So, to return to the original question.....if your office had already been firebombed once and you were under personal death threat,etc.etc.etc.
   The answer seems to be that you would rather hope that the killers better angels would take over and spare you.

   
   
   Going back to this particular situation, I myself would probably find another job/office to work in. Or I might take your advise and arm myself with proper training, otherwise I would be just as dangerous to my co-workers as any terrorist would.
   
   Mel

   
   
   Sorry, I don't follow, Mel. You would become just as dangerous to your co-workers as any terrorist by arming yourself without the proper training? So you, as an armed person without proper training, would have your senses of a rationally thinking human being taken over and you would then be compelled to randomly shoot and kill people? So it's the gun's fault. I see...Do you blame the fork when you eat too much?

   
   
   
   
9. Stephen Okula

   

   3 posts
   
   1/27/2015 12:01 AM

   Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: So, to return to the original question.....if your office had already been firebombed once and you were under personal death threat,etc.etc.etc.
   The answer seems to be that you would rather hope that the killers better angels would take over and spare you.

   
   
   The Charlie Hebdo people had taken steps top protect themselves. They had armed security, both police and private. Trained professionals, who in the event sacrificed their lives trying to protect the staff. That's a lot more than hoping for "better angels".
   
   You have to view the situation in its cultural context. The average European doesn't own a gun, they aren't comfortable with guns. They don't see guns as solutions to problems, and its not their first impulse to go get one, even if they could.

   
   
   
   
10. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    1/27/2015 9:01 AM

    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:

    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:

    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: So, to return to the original question.....if your office had already been firebombed once and you were under personal death threat,etc.etc.etc.
    The answer seems to be that you would rather hope that the killers better angels would take over and spare you.

    
    
    Going back to this particular situation, I myself would probably find another job/office to work in. Or I might take your advise and arm myself with proper training, otherwise I would be just as dangerous to my co-workers as any terrorist would.
    
    Mel

    
    
    Sorry, I don't follow, Mel. You would become just as dangerous to your co-workers as any terrorist by arming yourself without the proper training? So you, as an armed person without proper training, would have your senses of a rationally thinking human being taken over and you would then be compelled to randomly shoot and kill people?Possibly who knows how I would react, depends on the situation I suppose, but I do know I don't know if I would be very calm and collected, something that training could help provide So it's the gun's fault.I don't see where I said that, it would be my fault as I was the one pulling the trigger. I see...Do you blame the fork when you eat too much?Typically quote anytime someone thinks someone is blaming the gun, as I said above about me using a gun, the blame is on me.

    
    
    My point is some people are not going to be comfortable with guns regardless, yes it is an exaggeration that I would be more dangerous then a terrorist, since they are on a mission, but in the normal course of events such as me having a CCW or having a gun at home to use as defense, in my particular situation it could lead to accidental shootings more than the chance needed to protect myself and my family. Some people really shouldn't have guns even if it's my constitutional right. Maybe I don't worry about that like some do, we live in a nice neighborhood, and really don't have anything of particular value, so the chances of some armed intruders coming into my house, even as a mistake are less than an accidental shooting occurring. Something I would have a very hard time living with. I know there are ways to keep guns safely locked up, but is it then available when I really need it? (Those with guns could answer that better then I, with the exception that I would be so cautious as to really keep things safe)
    
    Just my opinion,
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
11. Steve Nelson

    

    0 posts
    
    1/27/2015 9:01 AM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:

    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Is it just me, or does it sound crazy to anyone else that a gold course mechanic should be all day with a pistol on his hip and a shotgun within reach? What is he expecting, the zombie apocalypse?

    
    
    Yes, this is crazy. Crazier still that an employer would allow it. And let's not try to fool poor Steve who has been away for a few years into thinking this is 'normal' here now. It's not.
    
    This message brought to you from a gun owning, lifelong republican, who works at a muni and who has been threatened at work, has come across two dead bodies in the wee hours over the years, but still leaves his gun at home, locked up and safe.

    
    
    
    
12. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    1/27/2015 2:01 PM

    Joel Rhodes said: Mel Said: I have to say even here in SW MO where I understand many to have CCW permits, I haven't seen in my 11 years here but only once in a convince store where someone had a gun on their hip where he also didn't not have any thing on him identifying him as a police officer, even our sheriff deputy neighbor (now detective) when not in uniform does not have his gun displayed. I was a little nervous myself, and I would have been a little more working the counter of that store. I think it was Larry Wilmore on the Jon Stewart show that it seems ok for those people carrying their guns and rifles in to restaurants and grocery stores as a form of protest, but as Larry said, let a brother try that.
    Mel
    
    Sir are you trying to insinuate that there is some type of double standard at work here? I'm sure that what happened in that Wal-Mart in Ohio would have happened if a white man was talking on a cell phone also. I mean, Ohio is an open carry State and it was a BB Gun and there was no waving it around so,... Oh never mind I can not even type this with a straight face.

    
    
    Or how about this guy?
    👳
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
13. Joel Rhodes

    

    0 posts
    
    1/28/2015 5:01 AM

    MAybe I have lived in Europe to long but I have a few questions that might help bring me back to the "good" side of this argument. Can someone please point me to the correct aisle in Wal-Mart to purchase a protection rifle? Last time I was there I did see some assault rifles but, I could never find the Protection Rifle.
    
    Why do I have to register my car and my dog and my marriage, but not a gun?
    
    When did the law in the USA give the person with a gun the right to be Judge, Jury and Executioner?
    THings have changed.

    
    
    
    
14. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    1/28/2015 6:01 AM

    Joel,
    
    Protection firearms are everywhere. You really need to get out of Europe more often.
    
    Interesting question about registering your car, dog, and marriage. Last I checked you have to get a license for all those items - just like a gun.
    
    "...the law in the USA give the person with a gun the right to be Judge, Jury and Executioner?" Where exactly is this law enacted?

    
    
    
    
15. Wahlin Scott B

    
    1/28/2015 10:01 PM

    Soldiers with super world class training shoot good guys sometimes.

    
    
    
    
16. Joel Rhodes

    

    0 posts
    
    1/29/2015 3:01 AM

    I agree that even those trained have mistakes happen. I am not agaisnt gun ownership. I think that some type of training should be mandated in some way. Not at a federal level but at a state or local level. Guns have a truely different use in NYC than in the outlaying areas of Montana. Let the local area decide the proper training needed.
    Accidents like kids shooting little kids with a gun just laying around the house are inexcusable. Parents in this case should be charged and held accountable.

    
    
    
    
17. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    1/29/2015 6:01 AM

    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: Joel,
    
    Protection firearms are everywhere. You really need to get out of Europe more often.
    
    Interesting question about registering your car, dog, and marriage. Last I checked you have to get a license for all those items - just like a gun.
    
    "...the law in the USA give the person with a gun the right to be Judge, Jury and Executioner?" Where exactly is this law enacted?

    
    
    I've always wondered what happens at auctions? Do they go through a background check and register those weapons?
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
18. Curtis Nickerson

    

    0 posts
    
    1/29/2015 7:01 AM

    Steve H.
    To quickly answer your question, yes, yes I would...
    I carry daily, I have a ccw permit, I have taken numerous training courses from "tactical situational awareness" and "active shooter training" to training for a "3 gun event". I shoot weekly at the range and I take both my wife and my 11yo to the range and they too have attended training seminars and bootcamps along with me.
    I don't work at a place like CH, nor do I put myself or my family in inherently dangerous situations. But this world is a crazy place, full of crazy people and it is my (not someone else's) responsibility to protect myself and my family and that is a task I take very seriously!
    
    "A gun is like a parachute, should you find yourself needing one and you dont have it, it isnt likely you will need one again".

    
    
    
    
19. Frank McQuiggan

    

    2 posts
    
    1/29/2015 7:01 AM

    First the attack in France was carried out by a few that were prepared to complete their mission, They were ready to kill. All of the police and personal security guards were only able to react to the situation. This being said the terrorists with automatic weapons ready to do a mission, I would venture to say that the security was caught by surprise and had no chance to defend themselves. If someone has to react to this type of situation first thought is "what is going on " time is short here, two to three seconds go by then then thought to draw and return fire takes about 4-5 seconds for a trained professional in this amount of time they were probably all dead. Most of us are not trained professionals to do this kind of thing so lets say add a few more seconds onto that now its 10-15 seconds from the first shots, How many of you think you could possible get a trained shot off. Once again it would be very few. I know Joel and his training its the same as mine we were trained to react to fire being that both of us are retired military, Personally for me if in this situation I would have to think that it would take me up to 15 seconds to react as my brain is not looking for this type of thing to happen at all times. You might say I have lost my itchy finger its not out there waiting for this to happen and my finger is not less than an inch away from a trigger of a semi automatic weapon.
    
    I understand what Joel is saying about the protection weapons in the states as I to spent a long time in Germany, after my years in the military I was an armed security guard given the responsibility of protecting the families of the soldiers in the housing areas. So I could have been expected at any given time to have to use my weapon to protect others. Not something that comes lightly to anyone, the thought of having to shoot someone, to effectively decide on my own who's life was more important, those I was to protect or the person trying to do harm. All life is valuable to someone.
    
    As far as since I've been back here in the states I have seen plenty of people walking around with concealed weapons does it bother me sometimes yes, but I make it a point to know my surroundings and get away from them when something does not feel right to me. Do I have a weapon at home, Yes I have a hunting rifle under my bed with a bolt lock and a trigger lock on it. Is it going to be any use to me if someone broke into my home, probably not because by the time I get it out it would be too late. If I was able to get it out to protect my loved ones would I be able to use it effectively, " Hell yes! " Would I really want to no but I would be able to. Would it be a your their life or my life situation yes if they broke in and wanted to do harm to my family. So yes I would shoot to take them out before they got a chance to take me or my loved ones out. I always will remember what I was taught in the Army, " One second I'm up he see's me, two seconds he is aiming, Three seconds he's shooting to kill me, 4 seonds if his aim was true I'm dead." well my saying to this is I'm going to kill him for trying to harm my family, before he has a chance to harm them.
    
    Gun control and gun training are a must for people who own guns. Accidental shootings can happen and I agree you need to be held responsible for them. But on the other hand I also have to think that if I shoot him is someone going to hit me with and win a lawsuit for killing the intruder? I have seen and read about it in the news it happens. Just some things to think about

    
    
    
    
20. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    1/29/2015 9:01 AM

    Is it a common occurrence these days in the U.S. that a family sitting peacefully at home is suddenly attacked by a murderous intruder breaking into the house? Sounds like it must be pretty frequent as a lot of people are worried about defending themselves in such an instance.

    
    
    
    
21. Curtis Nickerson

    

    0 posts
    
    1/29/2015 10:01 AM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Is it a common occurrence these days in the U.S. that a family sitting peacefully at home is suddenly attacked by a murderous intruder breaking into the house? Sounds like it must be pretty frequent as a lot of people are worried about defending themselves in such an instance.

    
    
    So you work from home, get your groceries delivered, everything you need is brought to you in your home, you never have to leave the comfort and security of your home? You have a pretty good gig I'd say...But for me, I have to leave my home to work, pick my child up from the bus stop, go to the store for needs...(much like those people peacefully shopping in that kosher market)
    
    And as far as peacefully sitting home, a burglary occurs every 10 seconds, a violent crime occurs every 20 seconds, an aggravated assault every 35 seconds according to the FBI..
    
    But you know, that's the beauty of this great nation, I have the Right and Freedom to carry a weapon, and others have that same right and freedom not too...

    
    
    
    
22. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    1/29/2015 12:01 PM

    I did the math. If there is an aggravated assault every 35 seconds in a country of 300 million then you have a chance of being a victim once every 280 years. Of course, that's for the overall population and the odds fluctuate according to demographics. Poor blacks are more likely to be assaulted than middle class whites, which is 99% of the GCSAA.

    
    
    
    
23. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    1/29/2015 1:01 PM

    Steve,
    
    Think of it as a personal safety protocol. Odds are very good that you will not need it but you're glad to have it if required.

    
    
    
    
24. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    1/29/2015 2:01 PM

    According to US DOJ stats, it appears that the likelihood of being a victim of violent crime is about 19/1000.
    
    Based on that statistic on average a person would be violently assaulted approximately once in fifty years. Since we live to 70 years that would suggest that on average a person would be violently assaulted once in their adult life.
    
    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mpcncvs.pdf

    
    
    
    
25. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    1/29/2015 2:01 PM

    I'm sure glad I don't seem to have the same worries as you gun totters. I have enough trouble sleeping at night thinking about dirt and grass ,without thinking I need a gun for protection. I don't even lock my doors at home. Foolish maybe but not something that ever crossed my mind
    The idea of gun ownership and self protection is completely alien to me and most people I know up here. I'm not judging right or wrong, just saying the idea is based on your environment.
    If you had been born here, or in Europe, your likely wouldn't have the same opinions about guns and protection
    
    Never seen one, never touched one, wouldn't know one end from the other

    
    
    
    
26. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    1/29/2015 2:01 PM

    James Schmid said: According to US DOJ stats, it appears that the likelihood of being a victim of violent crime is about 19/1000.
    
    Based on that statistic on average a person would be violently assaulted approximately once in fifty years. Since we live to 70 years that would suggest that on average a person would be violently assaulted once in their adult life.
    
    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mpcncvs.pdf

    
    
    I think I can cheat those odds if I stay out of the wrong neighborhoods and don't get involved in dangerous or illegal activities. It would be interesting to see statistics of accidental shootings compared to these.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
27. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    1/29/2015 3:01 PM

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_03.pdf
    
    Looks like the CDC reported that in 2011 there were 591 accidental shootings. 0.2/100,000. another 248 were killed by firearms where the intent was not determined, 11,068 murders, 19,990 suicides

    
    
    
    
28. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    1/29/2015 4:01 PM

    James Schmid said: According to US DOJ stats, it appears that the likelihood of being a victim of violent crime is about 19/1000.
    
    Based on that statistic on average a person would be violently assaulted approximately once in fifty years. Since we live to 70 years that would suggest that on average a person would be violently assaulted once in their adult life.
    
    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mpcncvs.pdf

    
    
    That's some impressive supporting documentation. You've done your homework.
    
    From the graphs on your link, I notice that the greatest drop in violent crime occurred during the Clinton administration, with a slight spike during the W. Bush admin, before edging down again in Bush's second term and Obama. . Probably just because there was a Republican Congress in the '90's, I know, but still, it leads one to think that perhaps peace and prosperity might do more to deter crime than more guns do.

    
    
    
    
29. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    1/29/2015 6:01 PM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:

    James Schmid said: According to US DOJ stats, it appears that the likelihood of being a victim of violent crime is about 19/1000.
    
    Based on that statistic on average a person would be violently assaulted approximately once in fifty years. Since we live to 70 years that would suggest that on average a person would be violently assaulted once in their adult life.
    
    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mpcncvs.pdf

    
    
    That's some impressive supporting documentation. You've done your homework.
    
    From the graphs on your link, I notice that the greatest drop in violent crime occurred during the Clinton administration, with a slight spike during the W. Bush admin, before edging down again in Bush's second term and Obama. . Probably just because there was a Republican Congress in the '90's, I know, but still, it leads one to think that perhaps peace and prosperity might do more to deter crime than more guns do.

    
    
    
    I'm not supporting anything, the questions here just made me curious, so I looked it up. I would agree that peace and prosperity are good contributors to crime reduction

    
    
    
    
30. Gerald Beierschmitt

    

    0 posts
    
    1/30/2015 7:01 AM

    Interesting:
    http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research- ... -you-think