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Would you....

89 posts
  1. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/9/2015 5:01 PM
    Let's say you're a journalist working for an obscure French newspaper which specializes in pissing people off. Lets say your offices have been firebombed and your life threatened. Let's say there is a policeman stationed at the door.
    Knowing all of this, would you carry a gun for your own protection?



  2. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    1/9/2015 6:01 PM
    Absolutely, especially since the French policeman wasn't packing. Or was he?



  3. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/9/2015 6:01 PM
    Tends to prove that the government can't protect you, doesn't it?
    In France, to buy a firearm, a hunting license or a shooting sport license is necessary. All semi-automatic rifles with a capacity greater than 3 rounds, all handguns and all rifles chambered in ‘military' calibers, including bolt action, require permits.
    The total number of firearms owned by an individual is also subject to limits … Fully automatic firearms are illegal for civilian ownership.

    Read more at http://libertyunyielding.com/2015/01/07 ... 2oU1OQY.99

    I guess the terrorist didn't listen to the part about automatic weapons being illegal. Go figure.



  4. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    1/9/2015 7:01 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS"
    In France, to buy a firearm, a hunting license or a shooting sport license is necessary. All semi-automatic rifles with a capacity greater than 3 rounds, all handguns and all rifles chambered in ‘military' calibers, including bolt action, require permits.
    The total number of firearms owned by an individual is also subject to limits … Fully automatic firearms are illegal for civilian ownership.


    Up until now, and maybe even after the last few days, the French were pretty proud of that.



  5. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    1/12/2015 7:01 AM
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS"
    In France, to buy a firearm, a hunting license or a shooting sport license is necessary. All semi-automatic rifles with a capacity greater than 3 rounds, all handguns and all rifles chambered in ‘military' calibers, including bolt action, require permits.
    The total number of firearms owned by an individual is also subject to limits … Fully automatic firearms are illegal for civilian ownership.


    Up until now, and maybe even after the last few days, the French were pretty proud of that.


    Chances are they are still quite proud of it.
    Do I take it situations like this are not possible in the US because you are allowed to own firearms?



  6. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/12/2015 10:01 AM
    Larry Allan said:
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS"
    In France, to buy a firearm, a hunting license or a shooting sport license is necessary. All semi-automatic rifles with a capacity greater than 3 rounds, all handguns and all rifles chambered in ‘military' calibers, including bolt action, require permits.
    The total number of firearms owned by an individual is also subject to limits … Fully automatic firearms are illegal for civilian ownership.


    Up until now, and maybe even after the last few days, the French were pretty proud of that.


    Chances are they are still quite proud of it.
    Do I take it situations like this are not possible in the US because you are allowed to own firearms?


    Not at all. Especially in places where guns are not allowed. The problem with disarming your populace and relying on the police to protect you is that when trouble starts and seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

    Steve



  7. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/12/2015 12:01 PM
    I think the one question that can't be answered, if those people had chosen to arm themselves, could they have really stood up to the military tactics of those who attacked them?

    Maybe sometimes they could especially if those getting attacked had military training as well, but in some cases, especially what we see some of here in the states, those that might try to pull an attack like this might be better armed and equipped with not only weapons but with protective gear?

    What we typically use as a reason to arm ourselves here are probably not an issue say in France as most common criminals do not have weapons either. I could be wrong, but that is my thought. Maybe someone with more knowledge of France could answer better.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  8. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/12/2015 6:01 PM
    We need to clear up a point, I think. The government doesn't "allow" me to do anything. I have a natural, civil and Constitutional right to arm myself and I have a duty to protect myself and my family.
    I can't help but think that if I were in that office when those assholes broke in, I would really rather have a gun and give it a go than die like a lamb led to the slaughter.

    Regards,

    Steve



  9. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    1/13/2015 12:01 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: We need to clear up a point, I think. The government doesn't "allow" me to do anything. I have a natural, civil and Constitutional right to arm myself and I have a duty to protect myself and my family.
    I can't help but think that if I were in that office when those !%@*x& broke in, I would really rather have a gun and give it a go than die like a lamb led to the slaughter.

    Regards,

    Steve

    I guess we would all like to think we would give it a go but when professionally trained soldiers come at you with assault weapons, I would just count my blessings I was dead and not a quad



  10. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    1/13/2015 1:01 PM
    Overall, you are three times more likely to be killed by a firearm in the U.S than in France, the past week's events notwithstanding. The U.S. runs about 10 deaths per year per 100,000 population, and France around 3.

    I've lived in both countries, and France is safer. At least there haven't been any school massacres by people legally owning firarms lately.



  11. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/13/2015 3:01 PM
    France must be glorious.



  12. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/14/2015 9:01 AM
    "I've lived in both countries, and France is safer."

    Tell that to the 100,00 Jews that will depart France for Isreal and the US in the next 10 years.



  13. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    1/14/2015 11:01 AM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: "I've lived in both countries, and France is safer."

    Tell that to the 100,00 Jews that will depart France for Isreal and the US in the next 10 years.


    If you can see that clearly into the future, Nostradamus Huffstuttler, then you should have warned us about the attack on Charlie Hebdo.

    I just looked it up, and the Jewish Virtual Library says France has 475,000 Jews, the third (albeit a distant third) largest population of Jews in the world, after Israel and the U.S. It has the fourth highest Jewish percentage of the general population, 0.74%, after Israel, the U.S, and Canada. These numbers would suggest that Jews find France reasonably tolerable.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html



  14. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    1/14/2015 12:01 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: France must be glorious.


    False assumption, Clay.

    I could list dozens of things I don't like about living in France, it's far from perfect, believe me, but the simple fact is that I am much less likely to be shot living here than I would be in the U.S. Maybe it doesn't jibe with your preconceived notions about firearms, but facts are facts.



  15. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/14/2015 2:01 PM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: France must be glorious.


    False assumption, Clay.

    I could list dozens of things I don't like about living in France, it's far from perfect, believe me, but the simple fact is that I am much less likely to be shot living here than I would be in the U.S. Maybe it doesn't jibe with your preconceived notions about firearms, but facts are facts.


    I get it. Just busting your...

    I have been hearing a bit about "No-Go Zones" in France. Never heard of them before the Charlie Hebdo slaughter. After a minor inter-web search I found some that say the No-Go Zones in France are nothing more than the standard bad areas of town that most people avoid, similar to those areas found in large cities of the States. I found others that claim the No-Go Zones in France are more than just ghettoes and in fact exclude nationalistic rule of law. What's the truth?



  16. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    1/14/2015 4:01 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: France must be glorious.


    False assumption, Clay.

    I could list dozens of things I don't like about living in France, it's far from perfect, believe me, but the simple fact is that I am much less likely to be shot living here than I would be in the U.S. Maybe it doesn't jibe with your preconceived notions about firearms, but facts are facts.


    I get it. Just busting your...

    I have been hearing a bit about "No-Go Zones" in France. Never heard of them before the Charlie Hebdo slaughter. After a minor inter-web search I found some that say the No-Go Zones in France are nothing more than the standard bad areas of town that most people avoid, similar to those areas found in large cities of the States. I found others that claim the No-Go Zones in France are more than just ghettoes and in fact exclude nationalistic rule of law. What's the truth?


    Fox News propaganda, Clay. I never heard of the "No-Go Zones" before today, and as far as I know it's only Fox News reporting this. My wife has spent the last seven years photographing the city of Paris up and down, and is completely unaware of any such areas. As you say, there are bad neighborhoods in any big city, and Paris is no exception, but the bad areas here aren't nearly as scary as say, the worst places in NYC. Criminals here are rarely carrying guns.

    My wife has ridden the Metro (subways) all over town, and at least in daylight hours has never feared for her physical safety. She worries about her expensive cameras and purse-snatchers and the like, but that's not necessarily Muslims, there are petty thieves of all stripes, and the gypsies are the worst. I had my pocket picked once boarding a train, by north Africans, probably Muslims, (working in a team,they were pros) but that was in L'Opera, one of the most oppulent quarters of town, and I'm sure it was motivated by monetary gain and not religious fundamentalism.



  17. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/15/2015 6:01 PM
    Steve: Peace brother. I mean no disrespect, I just think the European model leaves you all as potential victims. You disagree. You think the American model leaves us open to similar victimhood. While I disagree, there are plenty of victims to go around and enough to justify any world view you care to espouse.

    It sure looks to me like Jews are leaving Europe in general and France in particular due to rising intolerance from everyday Europeans and attacks from Muslim extremists:
    Frightened Jews leave France
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -says.html

    Some Europeans are coming around to the idea that the authorities can't protect them:
    Rabbi wants Jews to begin carrying guns
    http://freebeacon.com/national-security ... ying-guns/

    crime in the US continues a ten year decline
    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/20 ... es-to-fall

    Europe is awash in guns, almost all of them illegal. Your gun laws don't work.
    http://news.yahoo.com/paris-terror-arse ... 59447.html

    Regards, Steve



  18. Christopher Thuer
    Christopher Thuer avatar
    101 posts
    1/15/2015 7:01 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: I think the one question that can't be answered, if those people had chosen to arm themselves, could they have really stood up to the military tactics of those who attacked them? Mel
    Mel, 1 person in that office with a gun, with 2 bullets, could have stopped them. Would they have been successful? Maybe, maybe not. As it was they had zero chance.

    Chris Thuer, CGCS, Bear Slide Golf Club, Cicero, IN

  19. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    1/15/2015 11:01 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: Steve: Peace brother. I mean no disrespect, I just think the European model leaves you all as potential victims. You disagree. You think the American model leaves us open to similar victimhood. While I disagree, there are plenty of victims to go around and enough to justify any world view you care to espouse.

    It sure looks to me like Jews are leaving Europe in general and France in particular due to rising intolerance from everyday Europeans and attacks from Muslim extremists:
    Frightened Jews leave France
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -says.html

    This link doesn't work for me.


    Some Europeans are coming around to the idea that the authorities can't protect them:
    Rabbi wants Jews to begin carrying guns
    http://freebeacon.com/national-security ... ying-guns/

    It appears some Jews want guns, or so says one Rabbi, who admits in the article that such a measure would not protect them against a mass attack.

    crime in the US continues a ten year decline
    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/20 ... es-to-fall

    That's good news, but the U.S crime rate is still higher than Europe.

    Europe is awash in guns, almost all of them illegal. Your gun laws don't work.
    http://news.yahoo.com/paris-terror-arse ... 59447.html

    Because some terrorists can get their hands on illegal weapons does not make the continent "awash" in guns. By this standard, if a single illegal weapon was found anywhere in Europe you could say, "The gun laws don't work." The fact remains that in western Europe the murder rate and especially deaths by firearm are a fraction of what they are in the U.S. If that's not due to gun laws, then there must be a cultural predisposition to violence in the U.S.



    BY the way, the French media have been having fun lampooning the alleged "No Go Zones" in Paris. Fox News is a laughing stock over here.

    Respectfully,

    Steve



  20. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/16/2015 11:01 AM
    Yeah, Fox News is pretty bad and I know how much the French like to look down their noses at us, so I'm not surprised.
    I sincerely am glad that you feel safe, I would not want it otherwise and I hope that if anyone ever breaks into your house that you'll be ok. I also feel very safe in my community and I hope that anybody that breaks into my house survives to tell the judge about it.

    Regards,

    Steve



  21. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    1/16/2015 11:01 AM
    Steve,

    The French look down their proverbial Gallic noses only at Fox News, not Americans, unless you're equating a single tv channel with all Americans.

    Americans are much more dismissive and insulting to the Fench than vice-versa. The French have a lot of respect for our country in general. It's high on their list of places they like to visit. They have invited me, an American, into their country and treated me well, and I was chosen for this position by Frenchmen over numerous French candidates. What American golf club would take a French guy over the locals? Heck, what company of any kind in America would do that?

    And I'll be looking forward to hearing about how you blew away the next intruder into your home.



  22. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    1/19/2015 12:01 AM
    This past Saturday, Fox News apologized on the air for factual errors regarding "No Go Zones", areas supposedly under strict Sharia law where non-Muslims dare not go, in Paris and Birmigham, England. Turns out that it isn't true.

    I applaud Fox for owning up to the mistakes.

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/18/media/f ... index.html



  23. Joel Rhodes
    Joel Rhodes avatar
    0 posts
    1/21/2015 8:01 AM
    I am another American working in Europe, but , in Germany. Guns laws are very similar to those of France. In my very humble opinion, there would have been very little chance that an untrained gun owner would have been able to stop a well trained armed man with ZERO to lose. I have had to make that decision to pull the trigger on another human being while in Iraq at various times and for various reasons. It is not as easy as you would think! Here is a you tube link to an Australian comedian talking about the subject of guns. Some explicit language so be warned. Agree or disagree ha does make some fun about the debate.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62ytib-XCeY
    I am not a dont own a gun person. But, what would some training hurt? Living here is safe and I dont have a gun. I dont feel the need for a gun. If I did, I am not sure that I would have carried it into the Grocery store in France to buy some milk.



  24. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    1/21/2015 2:01 PM
    Joel Rhodes said: I am another American working in Europe, but , in Germany. Guns laws are very similar to those of France. In my very humble opinion, there would have been very little chance that an untrained gun owner would have been able to stop a well trained armed man with ZERO to lose. I have had to make that decision to pull the trigger on another human being while in Iraq at various times and for various reasons. It is not as easy as you would think! Here is a you tube link to an Australian comedian talking about the subject of guns. Some explicit language so be warned. Agree or disagree ha does make some fun about the debate.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62ytib-XCeY
    I am not a dont own a gun person. But, what would some training hurt? Living here is safe and I dont have a gun. I dont feel the need for a gun. If I did, I am not sure that I would have carried it into the Grocery store in France to buy some milk.


    I'm sure you're right, in fact some simulations of the event in France indicate that it would take at least two armed citizens to even have a chance against these guys. My point has been and continues to be that given the choice, I would prefer to go down shooting rather than depend on the goodwill of an armed intruder to not hurt me if I throw my hands in the air.
    It is absolutely incumbent on persons who choose to carry a gun to be proficient in its use and willing to do so.
    As long as your citizenry is disarmed, they will not have any choice except to depend on the police to protect them ( that worked out really well for the Charlie Hebdo staff, didn't it?), or the good intentions of a criminal who you hope won't shoot you.
    The fact that criminals and deranged persons always seem to be able to find a gun negates any good that you think your guns laws provide. You will never rid the world of guns, that horse has left the barn.

    Regards,

    Steve



  25. Joel Rhodes
    Joel Rhodes avatar
    0 posts
    1/22/2015 1:01 AM
    I agree that the horse has certainly left the barn. I have no issue with that. I would rather go with your idea that people should have some proficiency with the gun they have and that is not the case. I am sure that will never be the case and that is why 9 month old kids get shot by their five-year old brother. The "adult" that left that gun should be in prison.
    The newspaper staff di have police and an armed body-guard at the office on that day. I would assume these men were trained and proficient with the weapons they possessed. They were also killed.



  26. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    1/22/2015 9:01 AM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:
    Joel Rhodes said: I am another American working in Europe, but , in Germany. Guns laws are very similar to those of France. In my very humble opinion, there would have been very little chance that an untrained gun owner would have been able to stop a well trained armed man with ZERO to lose. I have had to make that decision to pull the trigger on another human being while in Iraq at various times and for various reasons. It is not as easy as you would think! Here is a you tube link to an Australian comedian talking about the subject of guns. Some explicit language so be warned. Agree or disagree ha does make some fun about the debate.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62ytib-XCeY
    I am not a dont own a gun person. But, what would some training hurt? Living here is safe and I dont have a gun. I dont feel the need for a gun. If I did, I am not sure that I would have carried it into the Grocery store in France to buy some milk.


    I'm sure you're right, in fact some simulations of the event in France indicate that it would take at least two armed citizens to even have a chance against these guys. My point has been and continues to be that given the choice, I would prefer to go down shooting rather than depend on the goodwill of an armed intruder to not hurt me if I throw my hands in the air.
    It is absolutely incumbent on persons who choose to carry a gun to be proficient in its use and willing to do so.
    As long as your citizenry is disarmed, they will not have any choice except to depend on the police to protect them ( that worked out really well for the Charlie Hebdo staff, didn't it?), or the good intentions of a criminal who you hope won't shoot you.
    The fact that criminals and deranged persons always seem to be able to find a gun negates any good that you think your guns laws provide. You will never rid the world of guns, that horse has left the barn.

    Regards,

    Steve

    Steve, Do you have weapons at the ready in your shop in case terrorists?



  27. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/22/2015 10:01 AM
    Larry Allan said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:
    Joel Rhodes said: I am another American working in Europe, but , in Germany. Guns laws are very similar to those of France. In my very humble opinion, there would have been very little chance that an untrained gun owner would have been able to stop a well trained armed man with ZERO to lose. I have had to make that decision to pull the trigger on another human being while in Iraq at various times and for various reasons. It is not as easy as you would think! Here is a you tube link to an Australian comedian talking about the subject of guns. Some explicit language so be warned. Agree or disagree ha does make some fun about the debate.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62ytib-XCeY
    I am not a dont own a gun person. But, what would some training hurt? Living here is safe and I dont have a gun. I dont feel the need for a gun. If I did, I am not sure that I would have carried it into the Grocery store in France to buy some milk.


    I'm sure you're right, in fact some simulations of the event in France indicate that it would take at least two armed citizens to even have a chance against these guys. My point has been and continues to be that given the choice, I would prefer to go down shooting rather than depend on the goodwill of an armed intruder to not hurt me if I throw my hands in the air.
    It is absolutely incumbent on persons who choose to carry a gun to be proficient in its use and willing to do so.
    As long as your citizenry is disarmed, they will not have any choice except to depend on the police to protect them ( that worked out really well for the Charlie Hebdo staff, didn't it?), or the good intentions of a criminal who you hope won't shoot you.
    The fact that criminals and deranged persons always seem to be able to find a gun negates any good that you think your guns laws provide. You will never rid the world of guns, that horse has left the barn.

    Regards,

    Steve

    Steve, Do you have weapons at the ready in your shop in case terrorists?


    Not trying to scoop Steve, but on the topic, I walked into a shop a few weeks ago. The mechanic was working on a mower and on his hip hung a hand gun. In the corner stood a shot gun. I left the golf course and stopped in a Subway down the road for lunch. There was a guy in line with a double shoulder pistol holster fully equipped with two hand guns. Should a terrorist visit that town he might be bargaining for more than he anticipated.



  28. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    1/22/2015 11:01 AM
    As a person who was attacked by a knife in my shop, what would have happened if I had a gun? I'm not sure I would want to live that way



  29. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/22/2015 1:01 PM
    Larry Allan said: As a person who was attacked by a knife in my shop, what would have happened if I had a gun? I'm not sure I would want to live that way


    I suppose it comes down to what a person has within themselves. I would like to think that if someone came at me with a knife and I had a gun that I would take the shot and not be survived with guilt. Having said that I think it's fair to say that I will never know until confronted with such a circumstance. I hope I never come to find out.



  30. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    1/23/2015 9:01 AM
    If attacked, it is either him or me and that is a no brainer! I would have no guilt if I was defending my life. Sort of like getting jumped by a couple of guys. If you don't render them harmless quickly with a couple of life endangering moves, you may be beaten to death. Always go for the total win when confronted or you may end up the victim including dead! They actually taught those things in the military and yes, even the reserves back when I was a young man. Taught self defense training during a 2 week active duty training from a former Seal who was then an Oakland cop. He had experienced Viet Nam in the early going when we really weren't there and the mean streets of Oakland. Amazing how lethal a few quick moves can be and they just may save your life and maybe the lives of others. Don't hesitate.



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