Another Tragedy Cancel The title field is required!

1. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   12/18/2012 12:12 PM

   Steven Kurta said: But the problem with the 'mental health' piece of the puzzle is, can you just medicate everyone indefinitely? Medicate who we think is a threat? And what if that family has weak insurance or no insurance?
   
   I read on the snopes forums when searching for mental institutions/Reagan (as he's largely credited with mainstreaming the mentally ill into the general population to balance the California budget and that without patient advocacy, there's nothing standing in the way of governments, state or otherwise, to just sort of give up on people or put them in jail.
   Mental institutions were looked at as entitlement programs and those have long since been cut in favor of adult living homes and private care facilities -- boku bucks.
   
   So, where do you put the broke folks who need the help this kid wasn't getting?

   
   
   From what I've read they typically end up in jail, so we are still paying for them, and probably paying more then it would cost in a facility that is specialized to handle these types of cases. Just guessing though, can't prove it, well except that more are in jail, saw that statistic somewhere this week.
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
2. Steven Kurta

   

   2 posts
   
   12/18/2012 1:12 PM

   ahh geez. Now this.
   
   http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Student-brings-gun-to-West-Kearns-Elementary/hmaOxzSHkUurqsCoQ5ca2w.cspx

   
   
   
   
3. Stephen Okula

   

   3 posts
   
   12/18/2012 1:12 PM

   Steven Kurta said: ahh geez. Now this.
   
   http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Student-brings-gun-to-West-Kearns-Elementary/hmaOxzSHkUurqsCoQ5ca2w.cspx

   
   
   An 11 year old kid brought a loaded handgun to school on Monday for protection because he was scared after the Sandy Hook massacre.
   
   There are people here on this forum who should applaud that, it is exactly what they've been preaching. The answer to gun violence is to arm more people with guns.
   
   Makes perfect sense.

   
   
   
   
4. Lynch Sean

   
   12/18/2012 3:12 PM

   by Stephen Okula, CGCS » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:45 am
   
   Sean Lynch wrote:
   Evil is evil, and it will always exist. Anything can be evil in the wrong hands. Ideas with a fervent following can be evil. I always remember a quote from an interview with Jerry Garcia. Someone asked him in an interview why he didn't talk to the audience more often during concerts and voice his opinions, given he was a "voice" of the counterculture at the time. His response was, flatly, "look at what Hitler did with a microphone".
   
   Garcia was on drugs.
   
   Great guitarist though, my IPod is full of his music.
   
   Stephen,
   
   I hope that you read my entire post and aren't misconstruing the point I was trying to convey. My point with the Garcia comment was this...We don't ban microphones or freedom of speech even though these things can at times be dangerous. I apologize if I didn't explain my meaning better. Yes, Garcia was on drugs, lots of them. And we banned drugs. And that didn't really work out too well. "Blanket" bans generally don't work. Prohibiton and the War on Drugs were abject failures. Like I said in my original post, I am an NRA member and a responsible gun owner. I believe strict guidelines and regulations regarding the use and ownership of firearms is a good thing, especially for semiautomatic rifles. Most NRA members do also. I'm more on your side than you think. I, personally, don't see the need for Dick and Jane civilians to own some of these semiautomatic rifles. Hence, I don't own one myself. And I certainly don't see any reason for any civilian to be able to purchase things like body piercing armor. I also tend to agree with Steve Kurta's comment regarding concealed carry permits. I really don't want anyone walking around with guns. However, for the moment, these weapons are not going away. My proposal is to simply try and put in place proper safeguards that will help curtail horrible incidents such as this one and others that came before. Restrictions on certain weapons and ammunition is a good place to start. It must also be used in conjuction with other measures such as assessing our mental health care practices like others have previously stated. And it should most definitely include a system of safeguards that ensure the safety of our children in schools, playgrounds, or any other places where innocent young ones congregate to just be kids. As for the 11 yr old bringing a gun to school because he was scared... That really just angers and saddens me. At first glance it appears that no responsible adult or parent sat down with this child to discuss the situation and help dispel his fears. There's an old saying, "Responsibility Educates". I think that that responsibility is something that is swiftly dissappearing from our modern culture. Which, much like these events, is tragic. And while it is sad that we need to have these discussions, I am happy to have the forum to discuss these topics with my friends and peers. That's always a good first step.
   
   "Democracy is not an easy form of government, because it is never final; it is a living, changing organism, with a continuous shifting and adjusting of balance between individual freedom and general order."
   --Ilka Chase, American author and humorist

   
   
   
   
5. Steven Kurta

   

   2 posts
   
   12/18/2012 5:12 PM

   Okay how's this?
   
   Is this both more crazy than arming teachers and cheaper than hiring a security company for every school?
   
   ..Is there a problem with just plain old cameras at every entrance to a school and tight, real-time monitoring? So, it's a 10 hour day of surveillance, so you enlist the teachers and schedule them for one hour out of their day to man the monitors. They tag-team it. That's part of their job now.
   Anyone that approaches the school that looks sketchy, they're confronted before they get near, if it escalates, police are called and a 'general quarters' alarm gets triggered to signal that all classrooms be locked down.
   I know schools have cameras, but they mostly go to a dvr and are used for archiving - no real-time monitoring.
   So, what am I missing?

   
   
   
   
6. Timothy Walker

   

   0 posts
   
   12/18/2012 5:12 PM

   Stephen Okula, CGCS said:

   Timothy Walker, CGCS said: My final statement, if somebody did their job this mother would not have been permitted to own firearms with a child who was known to have the slightest mental health issue. We can all agree that the first legislation should include a background check of family who may be around firearms.

   
   
   Lanza had no priors. Was he ever diagnosed with a mental disorder?

   
   
   Where did I mention anything about having any priors?
   
   He was mentally unstable and his mother was a nut. She should not have bad firearms at all in that environment. If she didn't have guns - chances are the kid wouldn't have shot the school up because he was denied the purchase. A white kid from suburbia with mental health issues does not walk into the hood and buy an ar-15 out of the trunk of a thug.
   
   Just my opinion and with that I conclude remarks about Newtown.

   
   
   
   
7. Lynch Sean

   
   12/18/2012 6:12 PM

   Steve,
   
   Like anyone else, I'm looking for a viable solution to this problem. And I think that what you're proposing is a good idea. These teachers must obviously understand that this is a problem that affects them directly also, much less their students. As educators, who most likely entered that field due to their commitment to children, would that be too much to ask? Instead of detention duty, you have security detail. Is it a sad comment on society? Yes. Is it necessary? Apparently so. Yes, most security cameras are your standard Radio Shack recorder systems that do more to catch criminals after the fact than catch the problem before it escalates. I don't want to see armed guards or armed teachers. In my opinion, putting more guns around children may deter criminals or even save lives in certain situations, but it's only a matter of time before it backfires and another tragedy ensues. No one likes metal detectors, but if they were integrated into a schools access points and tied into an alarm system linked to the police department I don't believe it would be terribly invasive to these kids or faculty. I have the utmost respect for all law enforcement officials, but the problem comes down to the old saying of "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away". We live in that kind of "split second" tragedy society at this point. I believe you said previously that you had a son that you hugged for an "maybe an uncomfortable amount of time" or something like that after you heard the news from Newtown. I applaud you for brainstorming on solutions. I can only offer mine in return from a shooting perspective:
   
   Limit caliber sizes on semiautomatic rifles. Anyone who shoots knows the size difference and damage capability between say, a 22lr round and a 30-06 round. The 223 round used in Newtown almost falls in the middle of those. Anyone who hunts knows what a 22lr or 22WinMag can kill as opposed to what a 30-06 or Lapua round can kill
   
   Limit the number of semiautomatic rifles a person can own. Compromise is a key factor here. Responsible gun owners like to shoot different guns. 2, maybe 3 is a fair number as long as new checks and balances (extensive background checks) are put into place to determine that these guns are not in the homes of people of questionable or diminished capacity. Anyone wanting to shoot more types of these rifles can join a gun club or rent from a local range
   
   Limit magazine size, but dependent on caliber size. As a shooter, a 10-25 round magazine chambered in 22lr is a small to reasonable size magazine. 22lr is a very small game (varmint) caliber. I'm on the fence on this topic, only because an experienced shooter can switch magazines rather quickly. But a larger caliber should dictate a smaller magazine in a semiautomatic rifle platform for "civilian use"
   
   I want to solve this problem as much as anyone else. Like I said before, there are many factors that affect the solution to this problem. I would rather be part of the solution than part of the problem

   
   
   
   
8. Lynch Sean

   
   12/18/2012 7:12 PM

   And I agree with Tim. This woman, as a responsible adult, should never have had firearms anywhere remotely accessible to a young man with any kind of questionable mental state. It seems she was afraid of him herself. You don't leave a pack of matches near a powder keg. Poor judgement and bad parenting seems to have played a large role in this ordeal. Obviously this was one part of the equation which could have easily been avoided with simple common sense

   
   
   
   
9. Ronald Kirkman

   

   40 posts
   
   12/18/2012 9:12 PM

   Greetings:
   
   Adam Lanza shot his mother four or five times in the face and head. Some top law enforcement officials say when someone is shot in the face & head so many times it is a revenge killing. (I did not read or hear about this from the CT Police).
   
   Unconfirmed news reports say that Lanza had been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, a mild form of autism. Psychologists who treat people with autism point out that violence toward others is not one of the traits associated with this disorder.
   
   Lanza just about destroyed the hard drive on his computer which means law officials probably can not gain any information from it.
   
   We are all saddened by this senseless massacre and as many of you said we have to figure out some way of preventing this from ever happening again. Lord, according to the newspaper some had been shot 11 times.
   
   It's doubtful we will ever learn the real reason why Adam Lanza did this.
   
   Capt. Kirk
   Retired Alien
   Needham Golf Club
   Needham,MA

   
   
   
   
10. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    12/19/2012 12:12 AM

    I mention that Lanza had no priors to make the point that background checks alone aren't the answer. I read lots of speculation, but so far, I haven't seen any reports confirming that Lanza was clinically diagnosed with any mental illness that would prevent him from legally buying a gun anywhere in the U.S. The only thing holding him back was his age, not yet 21. Background checks and registration didn't help in CT. I know people in the U.S.A. who own more guns than Lanza's Mom, and no one but me considers them crazy.
    
    Lanza blasted his way into the school with the guns. Cameras would not have stopped him, metal detectors would not have stopped him. Shooting a bunch of rounds to make a hole in glass makes quite a racket - he wasn't being stealthy and faculty was immediately aware something was going bad.
    
    Is a .223 calibre round that much different than a .22? I don't know anything about guns, but that sounds like a difference of .003" diameter. In greens HOC terms, it's not a big deal. It sounds insane to hear that allowing up to 25 round magazines would limit damage. I'll bet even a single .22 would be bad for a six-year-old child, never mind 25 of them.
    
    How about this? You have the right to own one gun. That conforms to the Sacred Second Amendment, which doesn't say you have the right to an armory. Sound too harsh? Okay, two guns, there's no way you could ever fire more than two at once. No more sales at gun shows, or unregistered sales between private owners. Magazines are limited to ten rounds, and we put a 300% tax on guns and ammo. The money goes toward a government buy-back program for semi-automatic weapons, hollow point and other especially dangerous rounds, and extended magazines.

    
    
    
    
11. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    12/19/2012 5:12 AM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: I mention that Lanza had no priors to make the point that background checks alone aren't the answer. I read lots of speculation, but so far, I haven't seen any reports confirming that Lanza was clinically diagnosed with any mental illness that would prevent him from legally buying a gun anywhere in the U.S. The only thing holding him back was his age, not yet 21. Background checks and registration didn't help in CT. I know people in the U.S.A. who own more guns than Lanza's Mom, and no one but me considers them crazy.
    
    Lanza blasted his way into the school with the guns. Cameras would not have stopped him, metal detectors would not have stopped him. Shooting a bunch of rounds to make a hole in glass makes quite a racket - he wasn't being stealthy and faculty was immediately aware something was going bad.
    
    Is a .223 calibre round that much different than a .22? I don't know anything about guns, but that sounds like a difference of .003" diameter. In greens HOC terms, it's not a big deal. It sounds insane to hear that allowing up to 25 round magazines would limit damage. I'll bet even a single .22 would be bad for a six-year-old child, never mind 25 of them.
    
    How about this? You have the right to own one gun. That conforms to the Sacred Second Amendment, which doesn't say you have the right to an armory. Sound too harsh? Okay, two guns, there's no way you could ever fire more than two at once. No more sales at gun shows, or unregistered sales between private owners. Magazines are limited to ten rounds, and we put a 300% tax on guns and ammo. The money goes toward a government buy-back program for semi-automatic weapons, hollow point and other especially dangerous rounds, and extended magazines.

    
    
    Psst, (whispering) Steve O, your liberal crazy talk is showing.

    
    
    
    
12. Rick Tegtmeier

    

    0 posts
    
    12/19/2012 7:12 AM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS"
    And please stop with the "only crimnals will have guns" BS. Wrong! The police will also have guns, and they're the ones who take down 99.9% of the criminals. Civilians justifiably defending themselves with a gun or shooting an actual criminal happens more in the movies than it does in real life. Name me twenty incidents (one for each of the children murdered at Sandy Hook) where it's happened, and document them please.
    
    http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx
    
    Stephen,
    
    Granted this is put out by the NRA but they are documented cases where armed citizens have protected themselves. There are 12 pages of documented cases for you to read. You may feel this too is a slighted view but they are true documented cases.
    
    We have to do something about gun control, I am not smart enough to know what that is. This is a travesty that is so hard to comprehend, but I don't think gun control is the only issue at hand here. We can point fingers in all directions. Also by the way my next neighbor was attacked in his home by a armed gunman about 10 years ago. He had no way to protect him and himself. They were bound, gagged and robbed. Thank God nothing more happened to the both of them.

    
    
    
    
13. Wahlin Scott B

    
    12/19/2012 8:12 AM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Is a .223 calibre round that much different than a .22? I don't know anything about guns, but that sounds like a difference of .003" diameter. In greens HOC terms, it's not a big deal. It sounds insane to hear that allowing up to 25 round magazines would limit damage. I'll bet even a single .22 would be bad for a six-year-old child, never mind 25 of them.

    
    
    I do not know much about ammunition either. I think the velocity of the bullet is a primary difference. Here they are side-by-side.
    
    [img">http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll284/scottcgcs/22_penny_223-tfb_zps56fb6007.jpg[/img">

    
    
    
    
14. Steven Kurta

    

    2 posts
    
    12/19/2012 3:12 PM

    Like to tout the Swiss and Israeli examples of gun ownership directly relating to lower gun crime?
    
    Then adopt their gun laws.
    They haven't talked themselves into believing that gun ownership is a "right" - they treat it as what it is, a privilege.
    
    
    [url]http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/12/18/a_league_of_our_own?page=0%2C0&wp_login_redirect=0
    [/url]

    
    
    
    
15. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    12/19/2012 3:12 PM

    Rick Tegtmeier, CGCS said:

    Stephen Okula, CGCS"
    And please stop with the "only crimnals will have guns" BS. Wrong! The police will also have guns, and they're the ones who take down 99.9% of the criminals. Civilians justifiably defending themselves with a gun or shooting an actual criminal happens more in the movies than it does in real life. Name me twenty incidents (one for each of the children murdered at Sandy Hook) where it's happened, and document them please.
    
    http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx
    
    Stephen,
    
    Granted this is put out by the NRA but they are documented cases where armed citizens have protected themselves. There are 12 pages of documented cases for you to read. You may feel this too is a slighted view but they are true documented cases.
    
    We have to do something about gun control, I am not smart enough to know what that is. This is a travesty that is so hard to comprehend, but I don't think gun control is the only issue at hand here. We can point fingers in all directions. Also by the way my next neighbor was attacked in his home by a armed gunman about 10 years ago. He had no way to protect him and himself. They were bound, gagged and robbed. Thank God nothing more happened to the both of them.

    
    
    Emilie Parker and 19 others like her last Friday. 9,146 murdered in the US in 2009. I'm sick to my stomach.
    [img">http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq258/Sokula/Emilie-Alice-Parker-001_zps5bc48cf3.jpg[/img">

    
    
    
    
16. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    12/19/2012 4:12 PM

    Here's something I found from an old document. It's called the United States Declaration of Independence. It was primarily drafted by Thomas Jefferson, and was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. In the text, it states,
    
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are [u">Life[/u">, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"
    
    I high-lighted the "life" word. I interpret this sentence to mean that Americans have a right to life. This document precedes the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, and so legally supercedes it. Where the Second Amenment violates our rights guaranteed in the Decalration of Independence, that Amendment ceases to be valid.

    
    
    
    
17. Peter Bowman

    

    11 posts
    
    12/19/2012 4:12 PM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Where the Second Amenment violates our rights guaranteed in the Decalration of Independence, that Amendment ceases to be valid.

    
    
    Good luck with that.

    
    
    
    
18. Ronald Kirkman

    

    40 posts
    
    12/19/2012 6:12 PM

    Steve;
    
    Will you please send that to Washington D.C. Thanks
    
    Capt.Kirk

    
    
    
    
19. Wahlin Scott B

    
    12/19/2012 6:12 PM

    I heard Obama intends to put forward some sort of gun control legislation in January. I ran to Bass Pro and picked up one of these babies for a steal. Do you believe they are making me wait three-days before I can take it home!
    
    [img">http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll284/scottcgcs/gun01_zpsbf72620f.jpg[/img">

    
    
    
    
20. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    12/20/2012 12:12 AM

    Scott,
    
    Every gammar school should have one.
    
    Wouldn't it be cool if it could be fitted with a 25 round magazine?

    
    
    
    
21. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    12/20/2012 7:12 AM

    We had an article in our local paper as there are a few state lawmakers that want to arm teachers of course after training, but to not belabor the point, the county Sheirff said his office would be happy to train teachers and if they can hit the target 30% of the time they would give them the conceal and carry permit. As I just re-read the article that if I'm reading it right, applies to all conceal and carry permit holders. The Sheriff will give them permits for free.
    
    I'll try to link the article here.
    
    http://www.news-leader.com/article/2012 ... ck_check=1
    
    What worries me is if someone is that good at hitting their target from 7 yards (that is the requirement) who or what is getting shot with the other 70% of their rounds? Just makes me not want one even more, I couldn't live with myself if I killed an innocent victim, of course I might not be alive either because I would be dead anyway.
    
    Oh another thing in that article I didn't even realize, people can conceal and carry in schools both here and Conn. if they get permission, didn't even know that, and I hope permission isn't given out.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
22. Jon Gansen

    

    1 posts
    
    12/20/2012 8:12 AM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Here's something I found from an old document. It's called the United States Declaration of Independence. It was primarily drafted by Thomas Jefferson, and was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. In the text, it states,
    
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are [u">Life[/u">, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"
    
    I high-lighted the "life" word. I interpret this sentence to mean that Americans have a right to life. This document precedes the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, and so legally supercedes it. Where the Second Amenment violates our rights guaranteed in the Decalration of Independence, that Amendment ceases to be valid.

    
    
    It also means you have the right to protect life and liberty and happiness. No doubt this guy murdered with a gun that had a large clip and considered a military style. Every gun I have can maim and kill and none are assault weapons. All along the gun is potential energy requiring a person to set it off. In this case a psycho. I agree some things should be looked at and changed, one also being mental health care research and awareness. Any mentally disabled and disturbed people shouldnt have guns, cars, knives, matches etc. you draw the line.
    Maybe at the same time we can bring up abortion that seems to be creation of life.

    
    
    
    
23. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    12/20/2012 9:12 AM

    Well then, the issue boils down to whether guns are more frequently used to take a life or to save one. If on balance, guns (in our domestic society) kill more people than they save (my view), then they conflict with our inalienable right to life enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, and the Second Amendment becomes irrelevant.
    
    Abortion is a separate issue, but I agree that there seems to be a disconnect on both sides of it. I don't have supporting numbers, but it appears that people who are anti-gun are most often pro-choice, and pro-gun people more pro-life. This doesn't make sense to me, either you respect the sanctity of human life or you don't.
    
    I, for one, am against abortion and against guns.

    
    
    
    
24. Steven Kurta

    

    2 posts
    
    12/20/2012 9:12 AM

    We having fun yet?
    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/ ... ack-sales/
    
    How bout' you Florida, don't like someone's tone in line?
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/18/s ... -customer/
    
    Nice.

    
    
    
    
25. Wahlin Scott B

    
    12/20/2012 9:12 AM

    I have a friend who is a retired police officer. He told me that even a trained officer in a firefight could fire 15 bullets at an assailant and not even hit the car the guy was hiding behind. In his case he was called to a domestic violence incident. When he knocked on the door the husband opened fire through a window. My friend fired at the window as he ran away and took cover behind his patrol car. When SWAT entered the house they found the wife hiding in a closet and the husband dead on the floor with a shot to the forehead from my friend's gun.
    
    For what it is worth, big guns are nothing new to criminals. Clyde Barrow liked his M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle.

    
    
    
    
26. Jon Gansen

    

    1 posts
    
    12/20/2012 10:12 AM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Well then, the issue boils down to whether guns are more frequently used to take a life or to save one. If on balance, guns (in our domestic society) kill more people than they save (my view), then they conflict with our inalienable right to life enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, and the Second Amendment becomes irrelevant.
    
    Abortion is a separate issue, but I agree that there seems to be a disconnect on both sides of it. I don't have supporting numbers, but it appears that people who are anti-gun are most often pro-choice, and pro-gun people more pro-life. This doesn't make sense to me, either you respect the sanctity of human life or you don't.
    
    I, for one, am against abortion and against guns.

    
    
    I believe people kill people, for some wackos like the guy in Florida they are either stupid or unbalanced and should not have a gun. That to me is the scariest part of the issue. Thou I may not agree with all you have said I respect your view.

    
    
    
    
27. Ronald Kirkman

    

    40 posts
    
    12/20/2012 10:12 AM

    Greetings;
    
    According to the news: Mrs. Lanza was in the process of having her son Adam committed to an institution. The papers were drawn up. Adam somehow found out and took the guns and shot his mother in the face a few times which is the revenge factor.
    
    Mrs. Lanza was a substitute teacher at the school and was a good friend of the principal. It appears in Adam's mind that his mother loved the principal and the school more than she loved him. That could be a reason he did what he did.
    
    Capt. Kirk

    
    
    
    
28. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    12/20/2012 10:12 AM

    Ronald Kirkman said: Greetings;
    
    According to the news: Mrs. Lanza was in the process of having her son Adam committed to an institution. The papers were drawn up. Adam somehow found out and took the guns and shot his mother in the face a few times which is the revenge factor.
    
    Mrs. Lanza was a substitute teacher at the school and was a good friend of the principal. It appears in Adam's mind that his mother loved the principal and the school more than she loved him. That could be a reason he did what he did.
    
    Capt. Kirk

    
    
    Heard that Fox reported that yesterday, but when Erin Burnett asked Trooper Vance last night, He wouldn't or couldn't confirm it. Not saying it's not true, but might want to wait this out a few more days until it's confirmed. Unless that happened this morning?
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
29. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    12/20/2012 11:12 AM

    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Here's something I found from an old document. It's called the United States Declaration of Independence. It was primarily drafted by Thomas Jefferson, and was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. In the text, it states,
    
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are [u">Life[/u">, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"
    
    I high-lighted the "life" word. I interpret this sentence to mean that Americans have a right to life. This document precedes the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, and so legally supercedes it. Where the Second Amenment violates our rights guaranteed in the Decalration of Independence, that Amendment ceases to be valid.

    
    
    
    What's your deal man? This idiotic comment is pretty strange. You usually seem to be fairly thoughtful and logical when you post on these forums. This is something I would expect to see from a fringe nutball.
    
    Youre saying that we should be banning anything that can be responisible for taking more lives than it saves? How bout alcohol? How many dwi deaths are the result of that per year? Backyard swimming pools? How many kids drown accidentally each year? Somking/second hand smoke? Should we immediately ban all of these things due to the fact that none of them have ever saved a single life, but have resulted in countless tragedies?

    
    
    
    
30. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    12/20/2012 11:12 AM

    Steven Kurta said: We having fun yet?
    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/ ... ack-sales/
    
    How bout' you Florida, don't like someone's tone in line?
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/18/s ... -customer/
    
    Nice.

    
    
    A bit of an exaggerated headline (Florida) don't ya think?