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Another Tragedy

127 posts
  1. Stephen Ravenkamp
    Stephen Ravenkamp avatar
    1 posts
    12/16/2012 8:12 PM
    Clay,
    I'm not going to dispute your statistics because they have absolutely nothing to do with the issue...gun safety. Whether having a gun protects you from danger is a highly controversial, and disputable, issue but it is not the issue in this case. I seriously doubt that in even one of the incidents of self-protection the victim used an assault rifle, an extended magazine, or armor piercing bullets to protect himself. Most people who are trying to promote this discussion are not advocating taking away your right to own a gun. But they ARE questioning why we should not have background checks for all gun sales and why the general public needs access to assault weapons, extended magazines, and armor piercing ammo. I think that any discussion must start with the acknowledgement that gun possession is a legal right, but that we also have a right to establish laws that promote public safety in the form of gun safety. I also believe that to focus on gun safety as the sole solution to this problem is the easy way out. Gun safety is a symptom of a bigger societal problem. We need to find the root cause and try to put measures in place to correct that. That is the bigger, and MUCH harder problem...both to define and to cure.
    Steve Ravenkamp, CGCS



  2. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    12/16/2012 9:12 PM
    There is no answer.
    Leave it at that



  3. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/17/2012 5:12 AM
    Stephen Ravenkamp, CGCS said: Clay,
    I'm not going to dispute your statistics because they have absolutely nothing to do with the issue...gun safety. Whether having a gun protects you from danger is a highly controversial, and disputable, issue but it is not the issue in this case. I seriously doubt that in even one of the incidents of self-protection the victim used an assault rifle, an extended magazine, or armor piercing bullets to protect himself. Most people who are trying to promote this discussion are not advocating taking away your right to own a gun. But they ARE questioning why we should not have background checks for all gun sales and why the general public needs access to assault weapons, extended magazines, and armor piercing ammo. I think that any discussion must start with the acknowledgement that gun possession is a legal right, but that we also have a right to establish laws that promote public safety in the form of gun safety. I also believe that to focus on gun safety as the sole solution to this problem is the easy way out. Gun safety is a symptom of a bigger societal problem. We need to find the root cause and try to put measures in place to correct that. That is the bigger, and MUCH harder problem...both to define and to cure.
    Steve Ravenkamp, CGCS


    Lets rehash Steve:

    Steve O asked for examples of citizens using hand guns in self defense, hence my posts and their relevancy.

    I agree with forms of gun control/safety and mentioned such in more than one previous post in this string.

    There you have it.



  4. Steve Nelson
    Steve Nelson avatar
    0 posts
    12/17/2012 7:12 AM
    Crazy people are everywhere, and common sense seems nowhere. Why did this lady with a mentally troubled son have multiple assault weapons unsecured in her home? How did the nut job in Colorado get access to assault weapons. I own a gun, a single shot .410, that I use to get snakes and varmin on my little rancho. I also respect the 2nd amendment. But I can't for the life of me understand why we allow regular citizens to buy military grade rifles and munitions, in many states without even a background check. He%%, I gotta get background checked just to coach youth sports. Some of these little kids were shot 10-12 times. Who the he%% knows how many rounds this guy sprayed. He had a Bushmaster .223 (NATO round) with multiple 30 round clips and apparently a lot of ammo left when he killed himself. While we can't stop all of these things, it seems to me a few well considered curbs could prevent/reduce the body count of these massacres.



  5. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    12/17/2012 9:12 AM
    We appear to be jumping pretty heavily on the gun issue. With more information coming out, we have learned that the mother was divorced, the husband was not supportive and the other son would have nothing to do with his brother. She was a survivalist and had an autistic son with an exceptionally high IQ who grew up playing violent video games. She took this kid to the shooting range with her in hopes of finding some way to bond with him. It sounds as if she couldn't even touch or hug her son due to his deep disorder. She didn't have any support network according to interviews of people around her. I just read an article from some lady that says she could have been this kids mother. She goes over the horrible challenges she faces with a kid that can be loving but lapses into fits of extreme anger and rage. The young kid has said in anger that he would kill her or kill himself. This kid also has an IQ that is off the chart. I think it was on the MSN Homepage. I would suggest everyone read it. It clearly points out the lack of help available to parents of kids with these types of disorder. You are pretty much on your own until a crime is committed. She fears for her life and she is concerned that her son could do the same thing. Doctors have prescribed a ton of pills but never approach the organic issue that is causing the behavior. It sounds like we have a ton of work that needs to be done in the mental health area. I do agree that a mother with a child like this should not have a household full of weapons or perhaps even sharp objects. She made some horrible choices and from the sounds of things didn't seek enough professional help. This kid has had problems all along and should have maybe even been institutionalized.



  6. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    12/17/2012 9:12 AM
    How much does the technology of up to the minute news and the round the clock coverage affect more shootings? Gun Free Zones! How do they influence the shooters target?



  7. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    12/17/2012 11:12 AM
    I think we can all weigh facts like instant news, violent video games and movies, a permissive society where morals and right and wrong are relative and the reduction of God in our daily lives. The problem with a deeply disturbed person with extreme mental issues is that most of those things don't matter. I am not sure the guns in her house or even allowing violent video games in the house were wise choices. Autism and related issues are poorly understood by medical professionals even today. The people that suffer from these issues just don't function like the rest of us. They said this kid had no sense of pain and could severely burn himself yet not suffer. We knew a family of an autistic child that was strong as a bull when he got out of control. He also suffered from flight which could happen at anytime. He once ran away and broke a leg. Not feeling pain, he ran until the damage was so severe that his leg just gave out. Unless you can live with the pain of having a child placed in an institution, you are pretty much on your own from the sound of things. The people we know made the tough decision to place their child in a facility because they knew they couldn't handle him. This kid couldn't function at all. It sounds like the Lanza kid could to some extent which makes it even tougher on the family. This horrible tragedy cannot be downplayed. Do we blame guns or lack of mental health assistance. I admit, if guns were not available in this house, it may not have happened to the same extent. Odds are, at some point he would have had a severe event and killed his mother and brother by some other means. The mental health aspect still cannot be ignored. Nothing excuses the action and the devastating tragedy that occurred. We need to learn to identify these killers before they act, whenever that is possible. The signs may have been obvious in this case but we will probably never know.



  8. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/17/2012 1:12 PM
    Here's a statistic:

    Average number of firearm thefts that occur every year in the US: 341,000
    (Source: US Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns and Crime)

    In the interest of defending ouselves against criminals, we are arming them at the rate of 300,00 per year.

    Nice.



  9. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/17/2012 1:12 PM
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: I think we can all weigh facts like instant news, violent video games and movies, a permissive society where morals and right and wrong are relative and the reduction of God in our daily lives.


    If that's true, Sandy, then explain to me western Europe. Kids have all the same stuff, violent video games, movies, whatever, they have exactly the same stuff. The people are not even one tenth as religious as the U.S. is, and the societies are far more permissive. Yet the crime rate, including the violent crime rate, especially the murder rate, and above all the deaths by firearms, is a fraction of that in the U.S. Same goes for Australia.

    What's up with that?



  10. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    12/17/2012 3:12 PM
    I am not saying those are hard core reasons for any of the bad things that happen. I am only repeating what many have claimed to be the cause of so many problems. I am not professionally trained in a neurological field and would be a fool if I made any full blown conclusions. I have seen studies that show that men that get seriously into hard core porn are in many cases not able to function in a normal relationship without the porn. I also have to wonder personally about the violent games, music and movies. The guy in Sweden was a hard core violent video nut. I think all that we can surmise is that if you have violent tendencies and you are addicted to this form of media, it may greatly reduce your sensitivity to real violence and blur reality for some, certainly not all. Most of us have a core value that prevents us from doing things like that. This kid lived deep in an internal world and none of those things would mean much in his closed world. I wonder if time will show that maybe he added drugs to an already limited world? I don't think we can ever make sense out of the world of the mentally ill because we don't live in it.



  11. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    12/17/2012 3:12 PM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: I think we can all weigh facts like instant news, violent video games and movies, a permissive society where morals and right and wrong are relative and the reduction of God in our daily lives.


    If that's true, Sandy, then explain to me western Europe. Kids have all the same stuff, violent video games, movies, whatever, they have exactly the same stuff. The people are not even one tenth as religious as the U.S. is, and the societies are far more permissive. Yet the crime rate, including the violent crime rate, especially the murder rate, and above all the deaths by firearms, is a fraction of that in the U.S. Same goes for Australia.

    What's up with that?


    I found this from 2010 Interesting when you think it US problem
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/10/john-lott-america-gun-ban-murders-multiple-victim-public-shootings-europe/



  12. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/17/2012 5:12 PM
    Jon, Jon, Jon....

    I did NOT say there were never any murders at all in Europe now did I?

    Why can't you simply read what I wrote?

    It's late and I'm tired and I'm not going to scour the internet to dig up murder figures for European countries only to refute someone who can't see past Fox News, the source of that nonsensical link you posted.

    I said violent crime and murders were a fraction of what they are in the U.S. The figures on murders by handgun by country look like this;

    Rank Countries Amount
    # 1 South Africa: 31,918

    # 2 Colombia: 21,898

    # 3 Thailand: 20,032

    # 4 United States: 9,369

    # 5 Philippines: 7,708

    # 6 Mexico: 2,606

    # 7 Slovakia: 2,356

    # 8 El Salvador: 1,441

    # 9 Zimbabwe: 598

    # 10 Peru: 442

    # 11 Germany: 269

    # 12 Czech Republic: 181

    # 13 Ukraine: 173

    # 14 Canada: 144

    # 18 Poland: 111

    # 20 Spain: 97

    # 21 Portugal: 90

    # 22 Croatia: 76

    # 23 Switzerland: 68

    # 24 Bulgaria: 63

    # 25 Australia: 59

    # 26 Sweden: 58

    # 27 Bolivia: 52

    # 28 Japan: 47

    # 29 Slovenia: 39

    = 30 Belarus: 38

    = 30 Hungary: 38

    # 32 Latvia: 28

    # 34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26

    # 35 Austria: 25

    # 36 Estonia: 21

    # 37 Moldova: 20

    # 38 Lithuania: 16

    = 39 United Kingdom: 14

    = 39 Denmark: 14

    # 41 Ireland: 12

    # 42 New Zealand: 10

    # 43 Chile: 9

    # 44 Cyprus: 4
    = 46 Luxembourg: 0



  13. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    12/17/2012 6:12 PM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Jon, Jon, Jon....

    I did NOT say there were never any murders at all in Europe now did I?

    Why can't you simply read what I wrote?

    It's late and I'm tired and I'm not going to scour the internet to dig up murder figures for European countries only to refute someone who can't see past Fox News, the source of that nonsensical link you posted.

    I said violent crime and murders were a fraction of what they are in the U.S. The figures on murders by handgun by country look like this;

    Rank Countries Amount
    # 1 South Africa: 31,918

    # 2 Colombia: 21,898

    # 3 Thailand: 20,032

    # 4 United States: 9,369

    # 5 Philippines: 7,708

    # 6 Mexico: 2,606

    # 7 Slovakia: 2,356

    # 8 El Salvador: 1,441

    # 9 Zimbabwe: 598

    # 10 Peru: 442

    # 11 Germany: 269

    # 12 Czech Republic: 181

    # 13 Ukraine: 173

    # 14 Canada: 144

    # 18 Poland: 111

    # 20 Spain: 97

    # 21 Portugal: 90

    # 22 Croatia: 76

    # 23 Switzerland: 68

    # 24 Bulgaria: 63

    # 25 Australia: 59

    # 26 Sweden: 58

    # 27 Bolivia: 52

    # 28 Japan: 47

    # 29 Slovenia: 39

    = 30 Belarus: 38

    = 30 Hungary: 38

    # 32 Latvia: 28

    # 34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26

    # 35 Austria: 25

    # 36 Estonia: 21

    # 37 Moldova: 20

    # 38 Lithuania: 16

    = 39 United Kingdom: 14

    = 39 Denmark: 14

    # 41 Ireland: 12

    # 42 New Zealand: 10

    # 43 Chile: 9

    # 44 Cyprus: 4
    = 46 Luxembourg: 0


    We're not number 1 with this one? Oh maybe it's because we allow assult weapons, these are only hand gun murders. (hey which one of those smilies is the tongue in cheek one?)

    Honestly a little surprised at the countries rankings but also the numbers, and that Mexico isn't higher.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  14. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    12/17/2012 6:12 PM
    My point was not to refute yours but to point out this happens all over and is not just the US. Seeing past Fox News has nothing to do with it. If you can find something wrong with the article that is not fact point it out. The writer made a valid point that shootings occur in gun free zones.



  15. Lynch Sean
    Lynch Sean avatar
    12/17/2012 6:12 PM
    Like most of us, I'm always a bit reticent to post any kind of comments on a subject as tragic and controversial as this one. And like anyone else I have "my" own opinion on the particular topic of guns and gun control. Obviously, my heart goes out to these families and the tragedy they have suffered and the anguish they will suffer for the rest of their lives. I am 37 years old. I grew up hunting and shooting and was exposed to a wide variety of different firearms, bows, etc at a young age. I grew up with fireams mounted on the wall of my home (unloaded). My parents taught me from a very young age to respect those firearms, just as their parents taught them the same thing before me, and their parents before them. I was taught safe handling and operation at a very young age. I was taught that these were tools, and dangerous ones at that, and not to touch them unless I was in the presence of a responsible adult. I was a loved child, brought up in a loving home. I was hugged and encouraged often. I also grew up in the golden age of video games that began to glorify violence. My parents did not allow me play video games that were not "age appropriate". When I got to the age that I was "grown up" enough to play these games, they sat down with me and explained the difference between reality and fantasy. They explained to me that "there is no reset button in life". I do believe that responsibility starts at home, with family, with parenting. I've heard accounts that this young man had Aspergers, autism, etc. I cannot comment on this young mans mental health issues, if he had any such at all. However, if indeed that was the case, it does seem to me that his mother, while legally owning these firearms, was somewhat irresponsible just by possessing these guns in a home where a troubled or mentally ill child resided. I am an NRA member and "gun enthusiast" (I've always hated that term). And for the record, I am not a parent. All of my firearms are kept locked up separately from ammunition, which is locked up in a different location. I do keep one loaded weapon hidden away for a "bump in the night" situation. But whenever my niece, nephew or any other child enters my home, that weapon gets unloaded and locked away also. I do believe in the Second Amendment, however I don't agree with the overabundance and accessibility of semiautomatic rifles. I do believe that responsible adults should be allowed to own and purchase these weapons but i agree we definitely need a better check and balance system to dispense them. 99.9% of people you meet at gun shows are safe and responsible gun owners. Once in a while you see a "weekend warrior" who wants his FIRST gun to be a semiautomatic rifle. We all learned to ride a bike by way of tricycle, then training wheels, and graduated up to a two wheeler. Most of us were taught to respect the force of an automobile when being taught to drive. Firearms have been around for a long time. I do believe that the increase in these types of instances over the last 15 or so years are predicated more on changes or deficiencies in our societal structure than by guns or games or mass media coverage alone. Again, I do think that changes to gun laws regarding semiautomtic weapons are warranted, but it is not the inherent root of the problem. Evil is evil, and it will always exist. Anything can be evil in the wrong hands. Ideas with a fervent following can be evil. I always remember a quote from an interview with Jerry Garcia. Someone asked him in an interview why he didn't talk to the audience more often during concerts and voice his opinions, given he was a "voice" of the counterculture at the time. His response was, flatly, "look at what Hitler did with a microphone". Anything can be destructive if used improperly. Things need to change. Not just in this country. Everywhere. Culture. Gun control laws. Parenting. Society. Sorry to prattle on so much. Not looking to debate anything. Just my thoughts. Hug your kids and your loved ones more often than necessary. The people you surround yourself with, keep close to your heart, and love are always much more special than they often appear. I'm not a religious man, but in the spirit of Timothy Cratchit, God bless everyone, every last one of us. Happy Holidays



  16. Churchill Kevin
    Churchill Kevin avatar
    12/17/2012 6:12 PM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Jon, Jon, Jon....

    I did NOT say there were never any murders at all in Europe now did I?

    Why can't you simply read what I wrote?

    It's late and I'm tired and I'm not going to scour the internet to dig up murder figures for European countries only to refute someone who can't see past Fox News, the source of that nonsensical link you posted.

    I said violent crime and murders were a fraction of what they are in the U.S. The figures on murders by handgun by country look like this;

    Rank Countries Amount
    # 1 South Africa: 31,918

    # 2 Colombia: 21,898

    # 3 Thailand: 20,032

    # 4 United States: 9,369

    # 5 Philippines: 7,708

    # 6 Mexico: 2,606

    # 7 Slovakia: 2,356

    # 8 El Salvador: 1,441

    # 9 Zimbabwe: 598

    # 10 Peru: 442

    # 11 Germany: 269

    # 12 Czech Republic: 181

    # 13 Ukraine: 173

    # 14 Canada: 144

    # 18 Poland: 111

    # 20 Spain: 97

    # 21 Portugal: 90

    # 22 Croatia: 76

    # 23 Switzerland: 68

    # 24 Bulgaria: 63

    # 25 Australia: 59

    # 26 Sweden: 58

    # 27 Bolivia: 52

    # 28 Japan: 47

    # 29 Slovenia: 39

    = 30 Belarus: 38

    = 30 Hungary: 38

    # 32 Latvia: 28

    # 34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26

    # 35 Austria: 25

    # 36 Estonia: 21

    # 37 Moldova: 20

    # 38 Lithuania: 16

    = 39 United Kingdom: 14

    = 39 Denmark: 14

    # 41 Ireland: 12

    # 42 New Zealand: 10

    # 43 Chile: 9

    # 44 Cyprus: 4
    = 46 Luxembourg: 0


    It would be more telling to see these stats vs. population.

    Also, which countries have the strictest/most leanient gun control laws.

    Kevin



  17. Churchill Kevin
    Churchill Kevin avatar
    12/17/2012 9:12 PM
    Firearm Homicide Rate per 100,000 population

    Rank Countries Amount
    # 1 South Africa: 74.5748
    12.7 Firearms/100 People

    # 2 Colombia: 51.7683
    5.9 Firearms/100 People

    # 3 Thailand: 33.0016
    15.6 Firearms/100 People

    # 4 Guatemala: 18.5
    13.1 Firearms/100 People

    # 5 Paraguay: 7.3508
    17 Firearms/100 People

    # 6 Zimbabwe: 4.746
    3.44 Firearms/100 People

    # 7 Mexico: 3.6622
    15 Firearms/100 People

    # 8 United States: 3.6
    88.8 Firearms/100 People

    # 9 Belarus: 3.31
    7.3 Firearms/100 People

    # 10 Barbados: 2.9963
    7.8 Firearms/100 People

    # 11 Uruguay: 2.5172
    31.8 Firearms/100 People

    # 12 Lithuania: 2.2463
    0.7 Firearms/100 People

    # 13 Slovakia: 2.1659
    8.3 Firearms/100 People

    # 14 Côte d'Ivoire: 2.068
    2.4 Firearms/100 People

    # 15 Estonia: 1.534
    9.2 Firearms/100 People

    # 16 Macedonia, Republic of: 1.2802
    12.52 Firearms/100 People

    # 17 Latvia: 1.2648
    19 Firearms/100 People

    # 18 Portugal: 0.8488
    8.5 Firearms/100 People

    # 19 Bulgaria: 0.7714
    6.2-19.4 Firearms/100 People

    # 20 Slovenia: 0.6036
    13.5 Firearms/100 People

    # 21 Germany: 0.4672
    30.3 Firearms/100 People

    # 22 Moldova: 0.4671
    1.3 - 7.1 Firearms/100 People

    # 23 Hungary: 0.44
    5.5 Firearms/100 People

    # 24 Poland: 0.4289
    1.3 Firearms/100 People

    # 25 Ukraine: 0.3495
    6.6 Firearms/100 People

    # 26 Australia: 0.3073
    15 Firearms/100 People

    # 27 Czech Republic: 0.2624
    16.3 Firearms/100 People

    # 28 Spain: 0.2456
    10.4 Firearms/100 People

    # 29 Azerbaijan: 0.2236
    3.5 Firearms/100 People

    # 30 New Zealand: 0.1827
    22.6 Firearms/100 People

    # 31 Chile: 0.1776
    10.7 Firearms/100 People

    # 32 Singapore: 0.0249
    .5 Firearms/100 People

    Sources:

    http://www.nationmaster.com
    http://www.gunpolicy.org



  18. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/18/2012 12:12 AM
    Jon Gansen said: My point was not to refute yours but to point out this happens all over and is not just the US. Seeing past Fox News has nothing to do with it. If you can find something wrong with the article that is not fact point it out. The writer made a valid point that shootings occur in gun free zones.


    There was nothing factually incorrect in the Fox article, but it tries to draw an erroneous conclusion: namely that gun laws don't work because though they are strict in Europe there are still shootings.

    The article fails to recognize that shootings, and indeed all murders, in Europe are a fraction of those in the U.S.A., whether taken in raw numbers or adjusted for on a per capita basis.

    Should we say traffic laws don't work because people still die in car accidents?



  19. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    12/18/2012 5:12 AM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said: Jon, Jon, Jon....

    I did NOT say there were never any murders at all in Europe now did I?

    Why can't you simply read what I wrote?

    It's late and I'm tired and I'm not going to scour the internet to dig up murder figures for European countries only to refute someone who can't see past Fox News, the source of that nonsensical link you posted.

    I said violent crime and murders were a fraction of what they are in the U.S. The figures on murders by handgun by country look like this;

    Rank Countries Amount
    # 1 South Africa: 31,918

    # 2 Colombia: 21,898

    # 3 Thailand: 20,032

    # 4 United States: 9,369

    # 5 Philippines: 7,708

    # 6 Mexico: 2,606

    # 7 Slovakia: 2,356

    # 8 El Salvador: 1,441

    # 9 Zimbabwe: 598

    # 10 Peru: 442

    # 11 Germany: 269

    # 12 Czech Republic: 181

    # 13 Ukraine: 173

    # 14 Canada: 144

    # 18 Poland: 111

    # 20 Spain: 97

    # 21 Portugal: 90

    # 22 Croatia: 76

    # 23 Switzerland: 68

    # 24 Bulgaria: 63

    # 25 Australia: 59

    # 26 Sweden: 58

    # 27 Bolivia: 52

    # 28 Japan: 47

    # 29 Slovenia: 39

    = 30 Belarus: 38

    = 30 Hungary: 38

    # 32 Latvia: 28

    # 34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26

    # 35 Austria: 25

    # 36 Estonia: 21

    # 37 Moldova: 20

    # 38 Lithuania: 16

    = 39 United Kingdom: 14

    = 39 Denmark: 14

    # 41 Ireland: 12

    # 42 New Zealand: 10

    # 43 Chile: 9

    # 44 Cyprus: 4
    = 46 Luxembourg: 0



    Steve, there you go again steering this topic in a direction to get us in trouble. I'm keeping my eyes on you fella (I'm doing that thingy where I point my fingers at my eyes then point my fingers back at you).

    And Kevin, don't fall for Steve's antics. Ol' Frenchy is a clever one but its a trap that ends with not so flattering notes. Trust me on this...



  20. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    12/18/2012 7:12 AM
    Sean,

    Very well written, and I applaud you for your acknowledgement that some gun control has to be part of the issue. Just as a non-gun owner I believe in a person's right to own guns, but there needs to be some restrictions as well. When someone such as you shows responsible ownership, that should be a model. All we hear in our neck of the woods is "No" to any sort of control and let's arm the teachers, what really does that do?

    If responsible gun owners like yourself will get involved in the political discussion, I would hope those that don't believe in any gun restrictions would see as well what responsible gun ownership is like. Also with a response like that it would keep the far left, (although there might not be as much push from them as the far right fears, of course that could be open for debate) from going to far on bans. Also with an opinion such as yours it would help give some of the moderate conservatives (if there are any left) political cover.

    I also believe you show great responsibility and insight on other society issues that should all be part of this discussion as well. We all need to step up and do our parts in that regards.

    Well done sir, well done.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  21. Jon Gansen
    Jon Gansen avatar
    1 posts
    12/18/2012 8:12 AM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:
    Jon Gansen said: My point was not to refute yours but to point out this happens all over and is not just the US. Seeing past Fox News has nothing to do with it. If you can find something wrong with the article that is not fact point it out. The writer made a valid point that shootings occur in gun free zones.


    There was nothing factually incorrect in the Fox article, but it tries to draw an erroneous conclusion: namely that gun laws don't work because though they are strict in Europe there are still shootings.

    The article fails to recognize that shootings, and indeed all murders, in Europe are a fraction of those in the U.S.A., whether taken in raw numbers or adjusted for on a per capita basis.

    Should we say traffic laws don't work because people still die in car accidents?


    Yes motor vehicle accidents kill more people than guns.... Should we go back to horse and buggy? No matter what, guns are here to stay. No matter what legislation is talked about and passed, people will find a way to get guns or other means to kill and maim. Just like any other machine, a gun needs a human being to operate and their is the problem. Who is behind the wheel , whos pulling the trigger? Same answer, responsible or irresponsible human being.



  22. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    12/18/2012 9:12 AM
    I think gun-free zones were well-intentioned but are ultimately a mistake and I think carry permits are just as dangerous.

    Obviously, and I think there are stats that bear this out, a person intent on hurting people with a gun is going to choose a "gun-free zone" because the odds are he'll 'succeed'. My issue with carry permits have to do with people in general. I don't know who's unstable, on anti-depressants/psychotics, who's looking for an excuse to use his gun (like the guy in FL who shot the SUV full of kids for their music being too loud because he felt 'threatened'), or just nervous and wrong.

    To plainly say it -- I don't trust you with a gun. Any of you.
    I don't know you and I don't want to be around people that have the ability to kill 12 people in 30 seconds because their wife just left them and someone took their parking spot, and today just happened to be the day they forgot to take their meds..

    None of that risk is worth any kind of pretend freedoms that I imagine I'm due. I'm due nothing.

    I know we're all constitutional scholars that know everything to know about the second amendment, but maybe like me, this may inform your opinion on where we're going with this..

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... dment.html

    *edit:
    [quote">Yes motor vehicle accidents kill more people than guns.... Should we go back to horse and buggy?

    Jon Gansen...really? Naw, you know better than to try that logical fallacy junk here. Keep that for your other forums



  23. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    12/18/2012 9:12 AM
    These will be my last two comments on this tragedy since I have no better solutions than anyone else. When we look at mental health, has it become too lenient in just giving kids dangerous medication. I heard a doctor who is also a Phd say that medical science does not have a good handle on the effect of these hyper activity drugs. They have problems with dosage issues. It doesn't matter how big you are because not everyone metabolizes these things the same. How many of these murderers have been on these medications to control some mental health issue only to turn around and murder people or take their own life? I will leave that to people far smarter than me. My other point may relate to Steve's comment. Nearly all these horrible shooting events have occurred in gun free zones. The crazy kid in Colorado had 3 movie theaters much closer to where he lived, all showing the Batman movie. He chose the one that was clearly posted to be a gun free zone. No concealed weapons even though perfectly licensed allowed. The same thing happened at the mall in Oregon and at the college in Virginia a few years ago. In each case, the shooter knew that nobody would be shooting back. Are these gun free zones putting a bullseye on the backs of people? Do as many crimes occur in cities and states where concealed weapon permits are permitted or restricted? Will a crazy person go through with a horrible incident if he knows someone can take him out? I think we better be careful and fully analyze this before we blame the gun. The kid that just did the unthinkable had tried to buy a gun recently but was deterred because of the process he would have gone through. In this case, the restrictive nature of purchasing a gun worked as it should have. Knee jerk reactions need to be avoided. In 1926, far more people died from gun violence than happen today. The trend based on decades has actually been shrinking gun attacks, not increasing. Don't get me wrong, one killing is one too many. I guess I am just asking if more gun laws will stop crazies or criminals from killing people. When you can't defend yourself, the criminals will have no deterrent. Thinking that this potential victim may be armed may prevent more attacks than we realize!



  24. Niemier Rick A
    Niemier Rick A avatar
    12/18/2012 10:12 AM
    Jon Gansen said:
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:
    Jon Gansen said: My point was not to refute yours but to point out this happens all over and is not just the US. Seeing past Fox News has nothing to do with it. If you can find something wrong with the article that is not fact point it out. The writer made a valid point that shootings occur in gun free zones.


    There was nothing factually incorrect in the Fox article, but it tries to draw an erroneous conclusion: namely that gun laws don't work because though they are strict in Europe there are still shootings.

    The article fails to recognize that shootings, and indeed all murders, in Europe are a fraction of those in the U.S.A., whether taken in raw numbers or adjusted for on a per capita basis.

    Should we say traffic laws don't work because people still die in car accidents?


    Yes motor vehicle accidents kill more people than guns.... Should we go back to horse and buggy? No matter what, guns are here to stay. No matter what legislation is talked about and passed, people will find a way to get guns or other means to kill and maim. Just like any other machine, a gun needs a human being to operate and their is the problem. Who is behind the wheel , whos pulling the trigger? Same answer, responsible or irresponsible human being.


    I agree guns are here to stay. But sensible gun safety laws, NOT taking guns away, can be done. Why does everyone automatically think their guns are going to be taken away. To drive a car you have to pass a test and have a license. And cars are just a diversion to change the subject. We are talking about guns like assault rifles, large capacity clips, etc. Would it be so wrong to have laws about proper storage, limiting high capacity clips, banning assault type rifles? The second amendment will ALWAYS give you the right to own a gun. But why can't I buy a rocket propelled grenade? An automatic machine gun? A Howitzer? Because common sense laws say I don't need them.

    Some people say we should arm teachers and administrators. Great, now we have inexperienced people with more guns shooting at god knows what. Look at the Lakewood, Washington shooting that occurred in 2009. FOUR experienced ARMED police officers were in a coffeehouse having coffee, and a lone gunman walked in and killed them all. Having a gun never helped them, and they were trained, experienced police officers. More guns are not the answer.

    And about the gun free zones....most of these killers want to die anyway. Most of them go to these places because lots of people are there, not because it is a gun free zone. They go their to kill as many people as they can and be a cult hero to someone. Name any victims from Columbine without looking it up? What about the shooters? Klebold, Harris ring a bell? Name a victim of the Conn. shootings? Name the shooter. If this 20 year old Conn. mass murderer did not have easy access to EIGHT guns and large quantities of ammo in his house would this had happened?



  25. Steven Kurta
    Steven Kurta avatar
    2 posts
    12/18/2012 10:12 AM
    But the problem with the 'mental health' piece of the puzzle is, can you just medicate everyone indefinitely? Medicate who we think is a threat? And what if that family has weak insurance or no insurance?

    I read on the snopes forums when searching for mental institutions/Reagan (as he's largely credited with mainstreaming the mentally ill into the general population to balance the California budget and that without patient advocacy, there's nothing standing in the way of governments, state or otherwise, to just sort of give up on people or put them in jail.
    Mental institutions were looked at as entitlement programs and those have long since been cut in favor of adult living homes and private care facilities -- boku bucks.

    So, where do you put the broke folks who need the help this kid wasn't getting?



  26. Tyler Daniels
    Tyler Daniels avatar
    1 posts
    12/18/2012 10:12 AM
    The shooter in the Oregon mall was confronted by a man with a conceal permit. The next shot by the shooter after he saw this man was through his head. I doubt any of you on here have heard this? Obama doesn't want this to get out!



  27. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    12/18/2012 10:12 AM
    Gun free zones are like drug-free zones. It made those who thought it up feel good about themselves. Gives 'em a reason to put up a sign. They are obviously not gun- or drug-free.

    On the other hand, Berkeley, CA is a nuclear-free zone. So far it's working.



  28. Timothy Walker
    Timothy Walker avatar
    0 posts
    12/18/2012 10:12 AM
    My final statement, if somebody did their job this mother would not have been permitted to own firearms with a child who was known to have the slightest mental health issue. We can all agree that the first legislation should include a background check of family who may be around firearms.



  29. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/18/2012 10:12 AM
    Timothy Walker, CGCS said: My final statement, if somebody did their job this mother would not have been permitted to own firearms with a child who was known to have the slightest mental health issue. We can all agree that the first legislation should include a background check of family who may be around firearms.


    Lanza had no priors. Was he ever diagnosed with a mental disorder?



  30. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    12/18/2012 10:12 AM
    Sean Lynch said: Evil is evil, and it will always exist. Anything can be evil in the wrong hands. Ideas with a fervent following can be evil. I always remember a quote from an interview with Jerry Garcia. Someone asked him in an interview why he didn't talk to the audience more often during concerts and voice his opinions, given he was a "voice" of the counterculture at the time. His response was, flatly, "look at what Hitler did with a microphone".


    Garcia was on drugs.

    Great guitarist though, my IPod is full of his music.



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