job posting rant Cancel The title field is required!

1. Jeremy Hreben

   

   0 posts
   
   2/23/2015 7:02 PM

   Forgive me if I am wrong or sound like an idiot but I am just on a rant. I just saw a job posting on this website for a golf course Superintendent. The posting said they prefer a CGCS. This course is in the Northeast. The salary posted is WAY below average even for a class SM. What do these people think? I am sure somebody will take this job that needs it but what a disgrace.

   
   
   
   
2. Peter Bowman

   

   11 posts
   
   2/23/2015 9:02 PM

   Seems I can't find the job announcement of which you speak, so can't really comment.

   
   
   
   
3. James Smith

   

   112 posts
   
   2/24/2015 7:02 AM

   I take it for granted your not applying then.

   
   
   
   
4. Jeremy Hreben

   

   0 posts
   
   2/24/2015 2:02 PM

   I'm happy where I am now. The job is in Maryland.

   
   
   
   
5. Clay Putnam

   

   33 posts
   
   2/24/2015 5:02 PM

   Different strokes for different folks. Ignore it if it doesn't meet your standards. I'm guessing the person who created the post, more than likely, has no reference to what CGCS actually means and only has a point of reference of what he/she can afford.

   
   
   
   
6. Keith Bennett

   

   2 posts
   
   2/25/2015 7:02 AM

   It seems to be an unfortunate trend in the industry. I was recently talking to someone who was looking for an experienced superintendent for an 18 hole course and offering just over half what average salary was for the state, according to the latest GCSAA numbers. I discussed with him the better value I thought he could receive by offering a better wage, and he commented that he currently had experienced supers 'chomping at the bit' for the position as posted and it being a 'buyer's market' he was confident that he would find a good candidate without a problem.
   
   With so many people being unemployed or underemployed, the problem is that there is truth to what he is saying. For many people, a low paying job is better than no job and they don't have the luxury of holding out for wages to rise to a level that meets their experience/lifestyle needs.
   
   Hopefully things start turning around, though, as someone told me just yesterday that the economy is getting better and we are doing well.

   
   
   
   
7. Timothy Walker

   

   0 posts
   
   2/25/2015 7:02 AM

   Agreed, however, in that position if the owner truly wants to improve the golf course for the long term, they will have difficulty holding that quality candidate.
   
   A quality superintendent may be chomping at the bit because he needs a job...once he gets the job, chances are good he will work his butt off to make it better so he can get the NEXT job. As soon as a better job opens up he is most likely going to bolt. Then what happens to the golf course, because this could very well happen July or August.
   
   An owner who has that attitude is not committed to the business and very likely will hold the superintendent accountable for an unrealistic expectation. We all know we can only do so much when resources are limited...

   
   
   
   
8. Craig Moore

   

   0 posts
   
   2/25/2015 11:02 AM

   Well stated Tim Walker

   
   
   
   
9. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   2/25/2015 2:02 PM

   Salary isn't everything. As talked about on Twitter from the show the 60-80 hour work week is crazy. Also having time off for family, insurance, pension plans, work environment also plays a part.
   
   As much as I might complain when I look at my paycheck which is under what good assistants get, I remind myself of the benefits. Especially now as I'm stuck in the house recovering from surgery. Grateful for my insurance that will pay for all the procedures and tests, and keeps my son healthy. Grateful for the 900+ sick hours built up, vacation that's maxed out and earning comp time to attend all of our son's band events. I have got more enjoyment from being an involved parent that the money and extra working hours wouldn't have been worth it. Job security is important too. Plus Im encouraged to improve myself as much as our budget allows. And I get to call most of the shots.
   
   The sad thing is when pay and benefits are shortchanged especially when other positions at the facility are paid higher. Of course each course is its own business and has to do what's besr them. Best we can do is continue to educate owners.
   
   Just my 2 cents.
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
10. Nicholas Daak

    

    3 posts
    
    2/25/2015 4:02 PM

    I hope many took the time to do the Salary/Comp survey. I did hoping it would effect me personally. I can take that info to my employee to show what I should be paid and compensated. Right now I am below assistant national average. My only perks are $1000 towards insurance a year and now my state and national dues, that they have paid the last 2 years of my eight years here. After becoming a Class A Super, all I got was a pat on the back. Only 1 of the 8 board members understood what that meant.

    
    
    
    
11. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    2/25/2015 5:02 PM

    I always do the survey and we have used the results along with other internal info and we are currently in line to move up a pay step.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
12. Morozowsky Martin

    
    3/2/2015 10:03 PM

    I like to add my 2 cents! Being let go last year for the first time in my life (17 years) of working, I had a lot of opportunity to think about this industry. I came to the realization how crazy this whole thing really is. You spend countless hours at work with very little thanks or praise, lots of selfless acts for the betterment of the property and crew and in the end there is no exist plan no retirement or pension. Lots of stress, lots of chemicals and fertilizer, lots of fuel, lots water all to chase a little white ball around in a park. You're at the mercury of mother nature and usually a general manager who is more concern about themselves. I asked myself was it worth it! I don't have buyers remorse but I see where the industry is going and it's not going good. It's definitely shrinking, what wrong with golf is that there is no middle class to support it. Country Clubs are really Ponzi schemes, muni's are senior centers, and the daily fee is a developers' problem. On the west coast you either work for corporate or Korean owned courses with little chance to move up because there lots of deferred maintenance and the water bill is million dollars a year. I'm thankful for all the cool people I meet though golf, but really golf is a cut throat business. Lucky for me I work at a university now and not looking back.
    
    PS. I get Holidays off (14) of them, also don't work weekend and I get 2 weeks off in December and by the way there is an exit plan with real retirement and FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION for my kids. The pay is great same as a golf course superintendent and an annual 3% raise.

    
    
    
    
13. Wahlin Scott B

    
    3/3/2015 9:03 AM

    Congratulation Martin on your new job. I went a similar route with 18 years in the private sector and 12 at the muni "senior center" with benefits and PENSION. As Joe Biden might say the pension is a "big ******* deal!"

    
    
    
    
14. Stephen Okula

    

    3 posts
    
    3/3/2015 11:03 AM

    I agree that this business is an aberration. What other line of work do people work 60, 70, 80 hours a week or more and more for no overtime pay and no added benefits? Any other occupation and it would be considered flat out nuts. But for us, it's business as usual, and if you're not prepared to sacrifice your every waking hour (and a good number of your sleeping ones, too) for the benefit of your employer - who owes you nothing in return, not even loyalty - then you're not taken seriously. Why is that?
    
    I have a nine year old son and I pray that he finds a better career than this one.

    
    
    
    
15. Canedo Alberto J

    
    3/3/2015 11:03 AM

    I have been very fortunate that the last 6.5 years have been Monday thru Friday @ 40 hours a week with full medical paid for by the company. Retirement is not good, but my wife has taken care of me on that part. Even though I am salary, my bosses/owners do not want me to put more than 8 hours a day, unless it is a mainline break or greens aerification. I get compensated by time off, if I work over 8 hours a day. I have worked at Private clubs, public golf courses and have enjoyed the 9 hole golf facilities the most, since water is no problem for us. Good luck and have a great day.

    
    
    
    
16. Clinton Tingen

    

    0 posts
    
    3/3/2015 12:03 PM

    To the original post, I completely understand what you are saying. However Courses are free to post whatever they wish. It would be up to us as a whole, to refuse to take positions that do not compensate. I agree that its outrageous to expect a quality Super for some of the salaries offered today. However as long as there are people applying for and accepting those positions at those wages, courses will continue to low ball everyone.
    
    I agree there are problems in the industry as a whole and would like to add another one, there are Supers everywhere that have no passion about the industry. Nothing is keeping those people in the industry, no desire to produce the best product, to excel, to constantly improve themselves and their course. With supers like that taking up space, it gives the impression to GM's and members that this job really is just growing grass and that is bad for all of us.
    
    Like the old saying goes, "Choose a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life." One of the beauties of being in this country is no one forces you to stay in an occupation.

    
    
    
    
17. Sandy Clark

    

    0 posts
    
    3/6/2015 9:03 AM

    At this point in my career, I would suggest those of you putting in 60 to 80 hours a week take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself a few questions. We are not putting astronauts into space and we are not doing heart or brain surgery. Don't get me wrong, I probably put in 50 hours a week but ask yourselves if I don't do this today, will my job or the planet come to an end? The answer is no! You guys putting those kind of hours in are hurting yourselves in more ways than you can imagine. I have been in this business since I was a kid and from 1970 on, have always been in a leadership position. For your own health, ask yourselves if those kind of hours are really necessary or is the stress and importance of those hours self induced? If you are 100% honest with yourself, you will have to answer yes! Unless you are the only golf course staff member doing everything yourselves, for the sake of your sanity and health, quit doing it. The golf course will be there tomorrow and I bet knowing so many people in this industry, it will still meet everyone's expectations. As far as the job postings, it will only change when nobody applies for those crazy positions. The owner will get constant turnover so he is only hurting himself and his company.

    
    
    
    
18. Richard Lavine

    

    3 posts
    
    3/6/2015 11:03 AM

    Sandy is right on point in a couple of his comments. As superintendents, we are our worst enemies. We are the 'go to guys' and no matter how much of our time it takes, we always seem to get it done. Often, we would be better finding a contractor and paying the bill. Secondly, and I think Bruce Williams wrote about this somewhere a few years ago, one man's low paying job is another man's opportunity to advance up from an assistant position. If no one applies, or if a new hire switches jobs for a better paying job, maybe that course will realize their pay scale needs a slight adjustment.

    
    
    
    
19. James Gubricky

    

    0 posts
    
    3/8/2015 4:03 AM

    I'm with Sandy on this. I just can't see the need to put in 60-80 hours per week, week in and week out. Sure, circumstances arise when there is a need to put in the extra time. Myself, I usually come in at 45 hours/week give or take.
    
    Perhaps I would feel differently if I was working in the USA instead of Asia, but I really enjoy coming to the golf course every day and love this profession. I don't think of it as "work".

    
    
    
    
20. Steven Scott

    

    0 posts
    
    3/8/2015 8:03 AM

    You all will get a kick out of this. A local 18 hole country club just lost their super due to board member interference(from what I heard from their members who have dropped). They immediately posted the job, with the PGA of America(you read that right). Their requirements: that the person be Class A PGA Certified, be able to manage club house, pool, tennis courts, and the golf course duties. They also mentioned that all of the chosen one's labor would be from volunteers, again at a country club. They have bentgrass greens and we are in the smack dead middle to south of the transition zone, in my experience Golf Pro+bentgrass+volunteers=dirt greens. The local university has a turf program so if they back off the PGA Certification they might be able to hire some kid fresh out of school who will see it as an opportunity to be the head golf course superintendent without putting in the work to earn the title. And of course the club is going to probably pay whoever this is in peanuts. I hate it for the old Super/GM with whom I'm acquainted, he did a great job considering the plates he was juggling, but I also wouldn't feel terrible if this course became a statistic, as there is a lot of competition for the handful of golfers in rural America.

    
    
    
    
21. Keith Pegg

    

    0 posts
    
    3/8/2015 4:03 PM

    James Gubricky said: I'm with Sandy on this. I just can't see the need to put in 60-80 hours per week, week in and week out. Sure, circumstances arise when there is a need to put in the extra time. Myself, I usually come in at 45 hours/week give or take.
    
    Perhaps I would feel differently if I was working in the USA instead of Asia, but I really enjoy coming to the golf course every day and love this profession. I don't think of it as "work".

    
    Sandy,
    
    For years I did 45 50 and more every week now it is 40 and no more and two days off every week. We can have a life if we want.
    I will retire in 7 months 21 days.
    
    Keith

    
    
    
    
22. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    3/11/2015 5:03 PM

    The market will dictate compensation. Sometimes it's up but we happen to currently be in a downward trend. It will eventually come back up but I don't see it in the immediate future.
    
    Hope this new GCSAA campaign will help spark a come back or at least a bit more appreciation. Well done GCSAA.
    
    http://www.gcsaa.org/community/chapter-leaders/managing-your-chapter/materials-for-chapter-publications

    
    
    
    
23. Curtis Nickerson

    

    0 posts
    
    3/12/2015 10:03 AM

    One mans trash is another mans treasure! As a young man just getting into the business I took one of these jobs (and a step back in pay) because I wanted to be the boss, plain and simple. And for those of you working 60-80 hrs a week, what are you doing, what tasks require that time? (seriously Id like to know what a "day in the life" of an 80hr a week supt looks like) do you not have a staff you are confident in, is their not enough staff, does your club have unrealistic expectations, is your assistant too weak to handle the load in your absence, do you not have an assistant? IMO if you're working that many hours to get the job done "you're doing it wrong"....
    
    Early in my career I had a boss that used to say "overtime breeds overtime". He had us work 40 hours one week and 45 the next (save for aeration and special events). And I've tried very hard to follow that motto most of my career, the job and our subsequent personal life is what YOU/WE choose to make of it...

    
    
    
    
24. Cerminara Jamie L

    
    3/12/2015 11:03 AM

    For the above post. To be told I am doing my job wrong because I work 60-80 hours a week is an insult, and your post makes you sound like an arrogant anus. If you are lucky to have all the resources available that you need, good for you. You should learn to respect your peers in this industry no matter where you stand.
    
    No assistant, no mechanic, no spray tech, crew of 8. Bentgrass /Poa tees, fairways, and greens in the armpit of the transition zone. We have lost no turf through 2 of the toughest seasons recorded over the past 100 years. My expectations are higher than my memberships, and I am ok with working what I do. I trust everyone on my crew, and can take days off when I want, even weeks for that matter.
    
    If you would like to spend a day in the life of an 60-80-hr a week supt, stop on by.
    
    For the original poster, apologies for the thread jack.

    
    
    
    
25. Curtis Nickerson

    

    0 posts
    
    3/12/2015 1:03 PM

    Jamie, It was not my intent to be an "arrogant anus" as you so eloquently put it, I am however very fortunate to work at a facility who,s expectations are in line with the resources provided.
    You clearly know nothing about me or the circumstances of which I have worked my way through my career to get where I am now. There are a few people on here that I have had the pleasure to know as friends and colleagues that know where Ive worked and know my history. I worked at clubs with no money, no assistants, no spray techs, no mechanic and no full time employees! I grew poa/bent greens in the heart of the transition zone with a manual quick coupler system, I walked to school up hill in snow both directions! Been there done that... Please don't lecture me on the woes of trying to do something with nothing as I did that most of my career, as I would imagine most of us have.
    
    My comments where not meant to be disrespectful or hurtful but rather insightful and perhaps even though provoking. If you enjoy working those hours great, and I hope your happy! But as for me and my staff a personal quality of life is more important to me then a patting myself on the back for working crazy hours "getting it done".

    
    
    
    
26. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    3/12/2015 1:03 PM

    Jamie Cerminara said: For the above post. To be told I am doing my job wrong because I work 60-80 hours a week is an insult, and your post makes you sound like an arrogant anus. If you are lucky to have all the resources available that you need, good for you. You should learn to respect your peers in this industry no matter where you stand.
    
    No assistant, no mechanic, no spray tech, crew of 8. Bentgrass /Poa tees, fairways, and greens in the armpit of the transition zone. We have lost no turf through 2 of the toughest seasons recorded over the past 100 years. My expectations are higher than my memberships, and I am ok with working what I do. I trust everyone on my crew, and can take days off when I want, even weeks for that matter.
    
    If you would like to spend a day in the life of an 60-80-hr a week supt, stop on by.
    
    For the original poster, apologies for the thread jack.

    
    
    
    You're right, Curt is an anus. That just cracks me up, sorry.
    I once worked for a man at a perrenial top ten course who told me that if we cant get it done in 8 and 40, we can come back later and finish it.
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
27. Curtis Nickerson

    

    0 posts
    
    3/12/2015 2:03 PM

    Hey Steve...Don't forget gun toting, baby killer, puppy kicker, round belly weed puller...

    
    
    
    
28. Canedo Alberto J

    
    3/12/2015 3:03 PM

    I work 40 hours a week, 8 hours a day, Monday thru Friday. My bosses told me not to work over 8 hours a day, there is always tomorrow. I have worked the 60 plus hour jobs and will never do that again. I enjoy getting off work between 1 and 130pm on the days I work. I have family time and do not have to worry about a thing after I get off. If you enjoy working over 40 hours a week, then that is what you do. I have a small 3 person crew, with no assistant, no spray tech and no irrigation tech. I do the majority of the hand watering and do all the spraying and fertilizing. Plenty of time to get it done in 8 hours. Have a nice weekend cause I'm done for the week.

    
    
    
    
29. Cerminara Jamie L

    
    3/12/2015 3:03 PM

    Everyone is free to voice their opinions, this is 'Murica after all. You gave yours, I gave mine. Not sure it could be considered a lecture though. I can assure you I agree with some of what you say, but the delivery could have been better. I spend at least 45 hours a week on these forums, so really I am only "working" like 15+ hours at best. The fact is I still appreciate you, that guy down the street, and whomever else has decided to take on this profession. As far as career history, we have all "been there and done that". So I don't find the need to justify my experience.
    
    Have fun working 40-45 hours a week. I'll continue to "breed overtime", and be compensated very well for it. Working 60-80 hours a week in season is nothing when you are working 20-30 (some cases even less than that) in the winter months...I consider it a good balance.
    
    I have my pup at my side, the best office on earth, and people who actually appreciate what I do. That is enough for me.

    
    
    
    
30. Gary Carls

    

    19 posts
    
    3/12/2015 4:03 PM

    Good afternoon Jamie,
    
    I think the real intent of the posts were to suggest that it is important to balance your personal life with your work life. I don't think anyone was suggesting that those who do the long hours were doing their job "wrong". When I first started in this business I was in golf course construction and often worked long hours and 7 day weeks to get projects done. That work ethic definitely helped me get ahead in this business.
    
    As I got older I learned to rely on my staff more and placed trust in them to get things done that I never would have trusted them with early in my career. I realized that if I wasn't there they would still carry on and it also helped the crew become more reliable. They took more ownership and pride as they were given more independence in their tasks. The last several years of my career were spent almost entirely in management functions with very little physical labor. If I had tried to continue to work the long hours and do everything myself I would have been out of this business a long time ago.
    
    If you enjoy the long hours at work that is great but don't let your personal life, health or family suffer because of it. Not saying that is your situation but many of us older (and now retired guys) benefited by learning to accept we couldn't do it all and no matter how many hours we worked there was always something else we could have still found that needed to be done. It will still be there tomorrow.
    
    Best wishes for continued success in this great profession.

    
    Gary K. Carls, CGCS, President - Oakland Turfgrass Education Initiative