Topdressing greens Cancel The title field is required!

1. Daryck Beetham

   

   2 posts
   
   8/1/2011 5:08 PM

   I am currently topdressing greens bi-weekly using a GA-45. Was considering using the GA-45 during aerification and switching to a GA-65 for my bi-weekly applications to promote a much firmer putting surface. My question for you all is? would this smaller particle size eventually seal up our greens and become more detrimental than beneficial?

   
   
   
   
2. Ronald Conard

   

   4 posts
   
   8/1/2011 8:08 PM

   Why would you ever take a chance at messing with your infiltration?

   
   
   
   
3. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   8/3/2011 10:08 AM

   Never put finer on top of coarse. The water will stop moving through. Soils 101

   
   
   
   
4. Daryck Beetham

   

   2 posts
   
   8/3/2011 4:08 PM

   Guys I agree with you completely, however there are sum veteran superintendents down here in the south east that have been doing this for some time now. There greens are terrific, hard and fast, not that mine aren't, but I could probably find a problem with a winning lottery ticket. This is why I asked the question. So we are on the same page about tying up the soil. Just thought someone had learned something new. Thanks, I believe I'll stick to what has been working for us!

   
   
   
   
5. Tyson Helsel

   

   0 posts
   
   8/4/2011 5:08 AM

   We have switched to the method this year of weekly dusting of 65 sand from 45. I agree completely with the other posts about possibly sealing off the greens, but time will definitely tell and we'll more than likely switch back if prominent signs begin showing. We do put a 25 back in after each aerification. As with every other club in America, the members wanted firmer surfaces. After 6 months of use, we can definitely see firmer surfaces. On the flip side, the mechanics love it as maybe 1% of the sand is ever picked up following a coco mat. TifEagle greens in Southeast.

   
   
   
   
6. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   8/4/2011 6:08 AM

   We can't get the coarser sands through the canopy, so we switched to a sand that has fewer coarse particles for light dusting during the season. We then try to ameliorate the situation by aggressively core cultivating and backfilling with very coarse sand. Been doing it for almost ten years now and it works fine.
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   
   
7. Fleegel Timothy

   
   8/4/2011 7:08 AM

   I use a finer sand than what the greens were constructed with. The reason is that the greens were built with a sand high in gravel, so I really have no choice.

   
   
   
   
8. Daryck Beetham

   

   2 posts
   
   8/4/2011 3:08 PM

   Steve
   
   Thanks for the post this was the answer I was looking for. Although I agree with the other post about sealing up the greens. I do believe using a coarse sand during aerification will counter the effects of the finer particle sealing it up.

   
   
   
   
9. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   8/4/2011 6:08 PM

   huff said: We can't get the coarser sands through the canopy, so we switched to a sand that has fewer coarse particles for light dusting during the season. We then try to ameliorate the situation by aggressively core cultivating and backfilling with very coarse sand. Been doing it for almost ten years now and it works fine.
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   Exactly the same program. And the finer sand disappears after a topdressing that applies 4-5 tons per acre following an aerification.

   
   
   
   
10. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    8/4/2011 7:08 PM

    .....besides, when you use the coarse sand, the finer particles filter down through the canopy and the coarse particles wind up in the mower bucket anyway, so why not just leave the coarse particles for when you can actually get them into the rootzone?
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
11. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    8/5/2011 8:08 AM

    Stevie, better budget for a vertidrain with 1" hollow tines. Maybe the particle size difference isn't big enough so that it's stopping water or possibly the layer is still being broken at standard aeration depths but a very high ranking club up here had wonderful greens until the fine topdressing exceeded there regular aerating depth. The greens thinned and turned to poa in the course of a couple of years.
    It wasn't pretty

    
    
    
    
12. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    8/5/2011 9:08 AM

    We typically vertidrain aggressively once every two years to a depth of 12". I really am not worried about this, and Poa really doesn't stand a chance here, does it?
    
    Regards,
    
    S

    
    
    
    
13. Ronald Conard

    

    4 posts
    
    8/5/2011 9:08 AM

    With everything in life: "It depends".
    
    If we are talking about taking a USGA spec sand and completely removing the 1.0mm particles and above, I guess......
    
    But if we are talking about taking the .25mm to 1mm range and replacing that with a huge percentage of .05mm to .25 mm range (which I've seen sold around here) then I would proceed with absolute caution. Personally I wouldn't proceed at all Darcyk has said in another post he has great greens. Why risk it? Sand is not anything to mess with. It makes great concrete in the right ratio.
    
    Also, Darcyk, I've never had a problem with firm greens using a USGA spec. Are you sure the lack of firmness is the sand and not an elevated level of o.m. in the top inch?

    
    
    
    
14. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    8/5/2011 11:08 AM

    huff said: We typically vertidrain aggressively once every two years to a depth of 12". I really am not worried about this, and Poa really doesn't stand a chance here, does it?
    
    Regards,
    
    S

    
    Well maybe poa doesn't stand a chance but you guys get some other weird grasses down there that might invade if the Barmudi gets weak. Just consider me one of those guys who comes down each winter and tells you "They don't do that at my course!"
    Donny should be headin' in the back door any time now

    
    
    
    
15. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    8/5/2011 12:08 PM

    Yeah, I know...I love those guys. The truth is...bermuda is the wierd grass that invades everything else.

    
    
    
    
16. Daryck Beetham

    

    2 posts
    
    8/5/2011 5:08 PM

    Ron
    
    No problems at all with our greens I'm growing Tifdwarf or should I say Tifeasy. After seventeen years of growing bentgrass this is a cake walk. Home by 2:30/3:00 everyday and get a full 8 hours of sleep. Anyway, organic matter levels are good. Greens are hard and fast. I just heard from a very respected superintendent down here that this is what a lot of supers in the area were doing to firm up there greens. I'm with you on the concrete. All I wanted to know is if anyone was doing this with good success. From the 11 supers that I spoke with down here, 3 of which are certified, have been topdressing this way for 5-10 years+. This practice also goes against everything I have been taught, but I can't say one bad thing about there greens.

    
    
    
    
17. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    8/7/2011 4:08 AM

    What I am talking about is taking the USGA spec sand and removing the coarser particles. I can't get those through the canopy anyway and they just wind up staying on top until a mower picks them up. There are a whole lot of guys growing ultradwarf bermuda who are doing it this way and then getting those coarse particles back in during core cultivation. I pull cores 4 to 6 times a year and these practices are working with no ill effects.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
18. Cecala Randal

    
    8/7/2011 6:08 AM

    Steve,
    
    I think Larry's point has some value. What happens when your 4 to 6 corings per year no longer go below the finer top dressing layer. Each year thereafter, there is more of a finer layer that is only getting penetrated every two years with the vertidrain.

    
    
    
    
19. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    8/7/2011 9:08 AM

    If I can't get the coarse particles worked in, then what difference does it make? They aren't going to magically incorporate themselves into the root zone are they? Didn't I also say that we deep tine these greens? If you don't like it, then don't do it, but don't tell me that all of the coarse particles that you put on your TifEagle is getting down where you want it, because I don't believe you. Logic should tell you that if you are picking all the coarse stuff up with your mowers, your application has been less than successful, so why bother throwing them out there? Come back later and incorporate it. I know it's difficult, but sometimes you have to unlearn what your turf professor told you.

    
    
    
    
20. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    8/7/2011 10:08 AM

    You OK Stevie?...you sound aggravated and your words are terse.
    I don't understand your 45 and 65 jargon so if what you are saying is that you are just removing the very course but keeping or increasing the medium, the you are OK. The club I was talking about went to a uniform fine sand that had nothing in common with the original spec sand.
    
    Now go home, pet your dog and have a nap

    
    
    
    
21. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    8/7/2011 10:08 AM

    That's all I'm doing, man. I wish I had never chimed in on this one.

    
    
    
    
22. Daryck Beetham

    

    2 posts
    
    8/7/2011 11:08 AM

    Steve,
    
    If it ain't broke don't fix it. Obviously it's work well for you and a lot of others that I have spoke to. Don't let arrogants bring you down. I'm sure you're doing a fine job. Keep your head up bro!

    
    
    
    
23. Michael Rosen

    

    0 posts
    
    8/7/2011 3:08 PM

    I think what Steve is doing makes a lot of sense.

    
    
    
    
24. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    8/7/2011 5:08 PM

    How do you guys feel about a USGA green? You know, the one with the choker layer.........fine on top of coarse....
    
    Oh well.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve
    
    Steve Huffstutler, CGCS
    Glen Eagle Golf and Country Club
    Naples Fl.

    
    
    
    
25. Keith Pegg

    

    0 posts
    
    8/7/2011 5:08 PM

    Steve,
    I like the old USGA with the chocker layer as it holds the water up so the roots of (bent Grass) can get to it. The problems I have seen is it has to be 300mm (12") to work right and I have seen 6" to 36" on top of it or drainage that does not work. Then it fails and they blame the USGA green. Warm season grasses Sand on top of gravel if bridged proper is fine because the roots will go down if they need to. Even so the sand has to be 300mm not 100 or 600mm or they too will fail. Some new items of information on sand depth in slopes and crowns are interesting and make sense. But that is off the point.
    Keith
    Zama Japan

    
    
    
    
26. Rosenthal Gregg

    
    8/7/2011 6:08 PM

    Having built greens both ways I would say the ultimate key to making a choker layer green work is having sand that meets the exact spec perching the top layer and bridges the pea gravel. Also the few inch depth (of the bridging sand) between the top layer and pea gravel is key as Keith mentioned. The USGA concept and specs are good, it is the contractor and their attention to detail that makes the difference. When I was doing this construction it was my responsibility to make sure it was done correctly and measure depths as the materials went down, take samples of materials to check specs as they were used. All went well, but it is a lot of work, you get what you pay for and are willing to work for..After doing the USGA greens then doing ones without the choker layer, I felt that with good base mix the choker was not needed. All of the ones I did were bent grass greens. However this has nothing to do with topdressing and I agree with Steve one hated to have the mowers collect the coarse particles of sand, just means more sharpening, unnecessary wear on reels and work for mechanic. If it can be avoided by using topdressing with less coarse material I see no reason not too, it comes up with aerifier cores anyway if you want it back in.

    
    
    
    
27. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    8/8/2011 4:08 AM

    huff said: How do you guys feel about a USGA green? You know, the one with the choker layer.........fine on top of coarse....
    
    Oh well.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve
    
    Steve Huffstutler, CGCS
    Glen Eagle Golf and Country Club
    Naples Fl.

    
    
    Now Stevie, You just proved my point. That is done to perch the water table, but hopefully there is a good 12" of mix above to taper out the water as it gets closer to the surface. perching that water table at the surface with a large differential fine material will perch the water at the surface.
    See I think the overall problem here is that you are a stubborn C and you went to the wrong school. A five hour drive and you could have attended an institution of higher learning ie Penn State...Had you paid for the gas we wouldn't be having this conversation.
    Disclaimer: This is in no way meant to besmirch the reputations of any of you who attended "The Other Place" Michigan State. Most have openly admitted to this mistake of poor adolescent judgement

    
    
    
    
28. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    8/8/2011 6:08 AM

    Actually, I was just stirring the pot.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
29. Rosenthal Gregg

    
    8/8/2011 9:08 AM

    Red be careful with all that Penn state/ Michigan state stuff, remember to fear the turtle!

    
    
    
    
30. Baker Daniel

    
    8/8/2011 10:08 AM

    Conversations like this make me love my greens. Mine are built from a fine sand with "some" peat mixed in 27 years ago. When they were re-done 6 years ago all they did was strip, fumigate, float and sprig. I can run my heads for 30 minutes straight and not have water puddle but still hold water in the top 6" all day long.
    
    Now I topdress with a sand that has mostly medium-fine particles and less than 2% medium-coarse. It disappears with the brush, infiltrates the thatch the last guy let build up, and virtually never gets picked up in the baskets. With a good cultural program, I think anyone could topdress with a finer sand between aerifications and they would be extremely happy with it and see little to no long term effects.
    
    Then again, this is TifEagle....