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Irrigation frequency on ultra dwarfs

34 posts
  1. Dru Clark
    Dru Clark avatar
    0 posts
    6/1/2013 5:06 PM
    I would like to know how often and how much those of you with ultradwarf greens are watering during the growing season. Interested in courses with USGA spec greens.



  2. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/1/2013 6:06 PM
    Champion in S. Florida. Depends on the weather and time of year, but generally every other day.

    Regards,

    Steve



  3. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    6/1/2013 6:06 PM
    Hey Steve. What hour of the day do you typically water your greens?



  4. Sam Welch
    Sam Welch avatar
    0 posts
    6/1/2013 6:06 PM
    So this is not from personal experience as we are converting to Champion from bent this summer, so take it for what it's worth...in Atlanta it sounds like most guys with Champion are watering just about every night and one well known course with MV is less frequent, but probably every-other. The main reason MV has taken off in this area seems to be just that, deeper roots and less frequent irrigation. I would imagine just about all of them are sending a hose out in the mornings though, but of course it beats the hell out of 2-4 hoses all afternoon til 6pm.



  5. Dru Clark
    Dru Clark avatar
    0 posts
    6/1/2013 9:06 PM
    I posed the question on here just to see if what I was doing was in line with others. It is, I water every other day, early morning so that my last cycle is done by 5:30am . This helps keep the dew down among other benefits. High skies and wind will mean we need to water without skipping days. All this and hand watering as well.

    Another thing that I have found is that every wetting agent we use leaves us with areas of LDS two days or so after the app even running water daily. It's as if the water is being pushed down past the rhizomes and causing the plant to stress. The plants always recover but it is unsightly for a couple days.
    Do Y'all deal with this also? Is this just something I should get used to seeing and just deal with?



  6. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    6/2/2013 7:06 AM
    Dru Clark said:
    Another thing that I have found is that every wetting agent we use leaves us with areas of LDS two days or so after the app even running water daily. It's as if the water is being pushed down past the rhizomes and causing the plant to stress. The plants always recover but it is unsightly for a couple days.
    Do Y'all deal with this also? Is this just something I should get used to seeing and just deal with?



    Dru,

    We apply Magnus and Duplex at the 4oz/m and 1oz/m rate respectively on a monthly basis. Have been doing this for years have have seen no LDS. What we do see is the entire green drying out in large patches between watering events.


    As for irrigation frequency, Nematodes are a bear, and require us to water daily. I think it all has to do with your own root depth rather than what the guy down the street is doing. There might be times that we irrigate in the morning and afternoon. All depends on weather and what the greens look like.



  7. Curtis Nickerson
    Curtis Nickerson avatar
    0 posts
    6/2/2013 1:06 PM
    I've got eagle mowed at .140 we have shallow roots and a tode issue like Andy. We water "as needed" sometimes it's daily, other times its every other day and on the most rare occasion it's every 3rd day! We. Spray Harrell's fleet at 1-2oz/m every week. We don't have a lot of LDS, rather the entire surface usually show stress, and we hand water those to reduce overall water use.



  8. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/2/2013 2:06 PM
    Keith Lamb said: Hey Steve. What hour of the day do you typically water your greens?


    Greens shut off at 4am
    No hand watering, weekly wetting agent application (Redox Penecal @ 32oz / ac.

    Regards,

    Steve



  9. Dru Clark
    Dru Clark avatar
    0 posts
    6/2/2013 5:06 PM
    Curtis Nickerson said: I've got eagle mowed at .140 we have shallow roots and a tode issue like Andy. We water "as needed" sometimes it's daily, other times its every other day and on the most rare occasion it's every 3rd day! We. Spray Harrell's fleet at 1-2oz/m every week. We don't have a lot of LDS, rather the entire surface usually show stress, and we hand water those to reduce overall water use.


    I said LDS but I miss spoke. The discoloration is over large areas and my membership thinks everything is dying. I am educating them all the time. When we had bent no one said anything about wilt... I am aware the plant will bounce back quickly but they seem uncomfortable seeing this on bermuda. It sounds like this is perfectly normal on ultra dwarfs. That's really what I wanted to know.



  10. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/2/2013 5:06 PM
    Anybody on the ultra dwarfs using moisture meters? (just curious)

    Thanks!

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  11. Dru Clark
    Dru Clark avatar
    0 posts
    6/2/2013 6:06 PM
    We do, with 1.5" probes. If we use 3" probes the readings look good and the next day we have dry areas. This is with roots that come out of the bottom of our cup cutter. Doesn't make sense to me but...



  12. Curtis Nickerson
    Curtis Nickerson avatar
    0 posts
    6/2/2013 7:06 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Anybody on the ultra dwarfs using moisture meters? (just curious)

    Thanks!

    Mel



    Just a half inch soil probe!



  13. Justin Murray
    Justin Murray avatar
    0 posts
    6/3/2013 3:06 PM
    I run some water everyday on Tifeagle. Construction varies from USGA to modified. Have a couple of greens I can stretch out to three days after a heavy irrigation cycle. What quantities are you using to water with?
    Heavy watering I run 2100-1700 gallons per green.
    Normal watering I run 1000-700 gallons per green.



  14. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/4/2013 4:06 AM
    I rarely run more than 3 or 4 minutes per head every other day. Usually, when it's dry, I run one cycle of 10 minutes per head per week.

    Steve



  15. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/4/2013 6:06 AM
    Interesting with all those roots you all still have to irrigate like that, I guess being a bent grass greens grower, it just sounds crazy.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  16. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    6/4/2013 12:06 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: Interesting with all those roots you all still have to irrigate like that, I guess being a bent grass greens grower, it just sounds crazy.

    Mel


    The roots on my Champion aren't that great. It's a notoriously shallow rooted grass.

    Steve



  17. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    6/4/2013 4:06 PM
    All those roots? Ha!



  18. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    6/5/2013 8:06 AM
    Andy Jorgensen said: All those roots? Ha!


    I guess I used Dru's comment about roots to label all bermudas.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  19. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    6/5/2013 9:06 AM
    You under water yet Steve? So much for "irrigation frequency," huh?



  20. Dru Clark
    Dru Clark avatar
    0 posts
    11/13/2013 6:11 PM
    Just an update: I no longer have roots more than 3-4" this I am told is normal after greens have matured over the past three seasons. I am now using revolution 5oz + dispatch 1oz with no excessive drying out. The only negative is that this combo seems to hold a little too much moisture at the surface. I am going to continue my search for the perfect moisture distribution product(s) next season. Maybe cascade+revolution?



  21. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    11/13/2013 9:11 PM
    Dru Clark said: Just an update: I no longer have roots more than 3-4" this I am told is normal after greens have matured over the past three seasons. I am now using revolution 5oz + dispatch 1oz with no excessive drying out. The only negative is that this combo seems to hold a little too much moisture at the surface. I am going to continue my search for the perfect moisture distribution product(s) next season. Maybe cascade+revolution?


    Dru, what is your irrigation practice after the Revolution app? I have heard and have seen in practice that a Revolution app has to be watered in with at least 1/3 " of water to push it evenly in the profile. We are different though, bent on USGA spec (well there are 4 soil). To light on the irrigation and the Revolution stays up near the surface and keeps it a little too wet on top.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  22. David Stout
    David Stout avatar
    0 posts
    11/13/2013 9:11 PM
    A good discussion and one that proves we are all over the map for various reasons. As a bent to mini verde convert, I actually feel more stupid with each passing year (going on 6). I've been anywhere from the deep/infrequent watering used on bent/poa in the southwest to every other day including hand watering on days between. I feel when they are good you can water every 3-4 days and and perform a mini flush if you are using effluent water. When they are bad, I feel like i've drug hose more than I ever did on bent in Phoenix.

    I prefer the half inch probe as mentioned before so you can see and feel your profile, but I wouldn't discount what a moisture meter can do to quantify what you see as long as you don't let your watering get dictated by those ambiguous numbers.......especially if effluent water is used.

    I've mostly uses aqueduct in the winter and primer in the summer but have since moved to simply aquaduct with a little 16 90 mixed in. I like to be in a position to always add water than want it to dry out.

    Lastly, I would not assume shallow rooting to be normal for whatever ultradwarf we use. I figure if I had 11" roots at grow-in, I can have at least 6" of healthy roots with hairs the majority if the year if no nematode or pathogen is present.



  23. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    11/14/2013 5:11 AM
    Well, I've never seen an 11" root, so I wouldn't know.

    Regards,

    Steve



  24. Dru Clark
    Dru Clark avatar
    0 posts
    11/14/2013 5:11 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Dru Clark said: Just an update: I no longer have roots more than 3-4" this I am told is normal after greens have matured over the past three seasons. I am now using revolution 5oz + dispatch 1oz with no excessive drying out. The only negative is that this combo seems to hold a little too much moisture at the surface. I am going to continue my search for the perfect moisture distribution product(s) next season. Maybe cascade+revolution?


    Dru, what is your irrigation practice after the Revolution app? I have heard and have seen in practice that a Revolution app has to be watered in with at least 1/3 " of water to push it evenly in the profile. We are different though, bent on USGA spec (well there are 4 soil). To light on the irrigation and the Revolution stays up near the surface and keeps it a little too wet on top.

    Mel


    This is subject to change but as of now I run 4min + 4min (to avoid runoff)after app and run a 10-12 min cycle that night. Sometimes less depending on the forecast. Do you think this is too little water? USGA greens.



  25. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    11/14/2013 8:11 AM
    Dru Clark said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Dru Clark said: Just an update: I no longer have roots more than 3-4" this I am told is normal after greens have matured over the past three seasons. I am now using revolution 5oz + dispatch 1oz with no excessive drying out. The only negative is that this combo seems to hold a little too much moisture at the surface. I am going to continue my search for the perfect moisture distribution product(s) next season. Maybe cascade+revolution?


    Dru, what is your irrigation practice after the Revolution app? I have heard and have seen in practice that a Revolution app has to be watered in with at least 1/3 " of water to push it evenly in the profile. We are different though, bent on USGA spec (well there are 4 soil). To light on the irrigation and the Revolution stays up near the surface and keeps it a little too wet on top.

    Mel


    This is subject to change but as of now I run 4min + 4min (to avoid runoff)after app and run a 10-12 min cycle that night. Sometimes less depending on the forecast. Do you think this is too little water? USGA greens.


    Dru, I remember having a poster for the different products that Aquatrols makes, but didn't see it in the break room. But you might try pulling up this address http://www.aquatrols.com/turf/golf/prod ... LOCALE=USA and clicking on the Revolution Users Guide with give you details about irrigation following application.

    As far as how many minutes to run your irrigation, I have Rain Bird 51's w/20 nozzles on most greens according to my Stratus II, if I want .33 " of precipitation I need to run those heads for 27 minutes, on my greens where I've changed out and installed 900 heads with 60 nozzles I only have to run heads for 19 minutes, so that run time depends on your nozzles and spacing. But my guess is your not running your heads long enough. I don't know either how the dispatch or Cascade might affect Revolution under those irrigation practices.

    I don't run any heads myself until that evening, I'm afraid, (but I am not sure if it's true) that once I run a little water on the Revolution it will just move into the thatch layer and then get tied up and the later irrigation will not move it into the soil. Because of that fear, I will even disable my cycle and soak program, (or what I do is ride around and turn on my greens with the radio for 30 minutes cycles and it over rides the cycle and soak program). This is on bent in the transition zone in 90 degree + heat and I've never seen a burn problem. The one thing I don't do per label is put it out in 2 gallons of water per 1,000. I use 1.5 gallons of water per 1,000.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  26. Dru Clark
    Dru Clark avatar
    0 posts
    11/14/2013 12:11 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Dru Clark said:
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Dru Clark said: Just an update: I no longer have roots more than 3-4" this I am told is normal after greens have matured over the past three seasons. I am now using revolution 5oz + dispatch 1oz with no excessive drying out. The only negative is that this combo seems to hold a little too much moisture at the surface. I am going to continue my search for the perfect moisture distribution product(s) next season. Maybe cascade+revolution?


    Dru, what is your irrigation practice after the Revolution app? I have heard and have seen in practice that a Revolution app has to be watered in with at least 1/3 " of water to push it evenly in the profile. We are different though, bent on USGA spec (well there are 4 soil). To light on the irrigation and the Revolution stays up near the surface and keeps it a little too wet on top.

    Mel


    This is subject to change but as of now I run 4min + 4min (to avoid runoff)after app and run a 10-12 min cycle that night. Sometimes less depending on the forecast. Do you think this is too little water? USGA greens.


    Dru, I remember having a poster for the different products that Aquatrols makes, but didn't see it in the break room. But you might try pulling up this address http://www.aquatrols.com/turf/golf/prod ... LOCALE=USA and clicking on the Revolution Users Guide with give you details about irrigation following application.

    As far as how many minutes to run your irrigation, I have Rain Bird 51's w/20 nozzles on most greens according to my Stratus II, if I want .33 " of precipitation I need to run those heads for 27 minutes, on my greens where I've changed out and installed 900 heads with 60 nozzles I only have to run heads for 19 minutes, so that run time depends on your nozzles and spacing. But my guess is your not running your heads long enough. I don't know either how the dispatch or Cascade might affect Revolution under those irrigation practices.

    I don't run any heads myself until that evening, I'm afraid, (but I am not sure if it's true) that once I run a little water on the Revolution it will just move into the thatch layer and then get tied up and the later irrigation will not move it into the soil. Because of that fear, I will even disable my cycle and soak program, (or what I do is ride around and turn on my greens with the radio for 30 minutes cycles and it over rides the cycle and soak program). This is on bent in the transition zone in 90 degree + heat and I've never seen a burn problem. The one thing I don't do per label is put it out in 2 gallons of water per 1,000. I use 1.5 gallons of water per 1,000.

    Mel


    The idea behind the Dispatch is to help penetrate the thatch layer so theoretically I don't need as much water. I am going to began using more water behind our app from now on just to see. I currently use 2.2 gal h20/m. I read a USGA article recently explaining the differences between wetting agents and it stated that Revolution is the only chemical with that particular make-up. The info was over my head to be honest and little was gained from reading it. VIVAX from precision is coming out soon. It may be worth trying out also..?



  27. Nicholas Cauley
    Nicholas Cauley avatar
    0 posts
    11/14/2013 2:11 PM
    I am located in North Louisiana and we have 12 year old eagle. We water greens once a week. Typically we start pulling hose on Friday afternoon. This has produced some very deep roots for us.



  28. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    11/15/2013 1:11 PM
    Over the years I have found my eagle loves water like no other. The greens I have that holds more moisture is always the thickest and fullest. I try to get my watering done between Sunday night and Wednesday night. We hand water as needed for hot spots and drain lines. I use the naiaad watering agents as needed. Sometimes I will water on the weekend but I try not to unless they really need it. My best golfers generally play Friday and Saturday so I try to dry them out a little for their money games. My schedule is generally 1 hour after dark and for an average of 7-10 minutes. Since our bunkers are not as good as I would like I try to keep them as dry as possible but in the summer and during aerifications it is impossible.



  29. Holt Michael
    Holt Michael avatar
    11/17/2013 9:11 AM
    Cascade and Magnaplex = no lds for me on my champion. No pulling hoses either. Water about .15" of an inch per night during growing season. Remember Champion is a shallow dense root system, it's not going to chase water like dwarf did, no need to water deep.



  30. Keith Wood
    Keith Wood avatar
    0 posts
    11/23/2013 2:11 PM
    Drew
    Unless you guys changed the contours or rebuilt the greens when converting from bent to Bermuda, your going to struggle with water management. Those greens were the most uneven mixes I've ever managed. Some areas had around 6 inches of mix and others had over 20. On top of that, some of the mix seemed to be riverbed sand and some was your typical mix contained peat. This makes for a Very Uneven water table. I was managing bent there so my plan was to use a penetrant with with LDS corrective qualities (Cascade 4 oz + Duplex 1oz) over the entire green and then hand water with a tablet that contained an agent with holding qualities (Magnus tabs). We very rarely used the heads and managed with hoses. It worked well for the turf but, it was tough on us. Of course this is before the new irrigation system was installed. You have to remember that those greens were built for bentgrass and to move water out, hence the river bed sand and deep mixes. Anything you can do to slow water down the better with bermudagrass. Also, ID the areas with not enough mix (behind bunker on 5 right side), and those ares with too much mix (front of 3). When hand watering use tablets and be sure to keep those deep mixes wet during the winter. Good luck and feel free to call if you want to go hole by hole for the messed up mixes that I can remember.
    Keith



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