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Gravel around new irrigation pipe

37 posts
  1. Paul Carter
    Paul Carter avatar
    0 posts
    11/13/2012 1:11 PM
    All,

    I have an irrigation designer who is wanting to place gravel around the irrigation pipe on a renovation of one of our golf courses in west Tennessee. He is adamant that this is a common practice and that placing the gravel 1/2" to 3/4" in size around the pipe will reduce our chances of blowouts in the future because gravel is "self packing" as he put it. I have been in the business for over 20 years and have never seen or heard of this. I just can not see the benefit or the thought process behind the strong recommendation that he is making.

    Has anyone had this process done in a non sandy soil area? Am I just out of touch with the latest and greatest in irrigation installation?

    Any and all thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Paul L. Carter, CGCS
    The Bear Trace at Harrison Bay



  2. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    11/13/2012 2:11 PM
    Problem is our pipes move, expand and contract quite a bit. I would think that gravel rubbing against the pipe would lead to problems down the road.

    We always try our best to backfill with clean material. Sometimes this might mean sifting through the spoils to get rid of the rocks, and such.



  3. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    11/13/2012 2:11 PM
    I would ask for a list of clubs that they have done this to and make some calls. Oh yea make sure they have had the installation in for a minimum of 5-10years.



  4. Keith Pegg
    Keith Pegg avatar
    0 posts
    11/13/2012 2:11 PM
    Paul Carter, CGCS said: All,

    I have an irrigation designer who is wanting to place gravel around the irrigation pipe on a renovation of one of our golf courses in west Tennessee. He is adamant that this is a common practice and that placing the gravel 1/2" to 3/4" in size around the pipe will reduce our chances of blowouts in the future because gravel is "self packing" as he put it. I have been in the business for over 20 years and have never seen or heard of this. I just can not see the benefit or the thought process behind the strong recommendation that he is making.

    Has anyone had this process done in a non sandy soil area? Am I just out of touch with the latest and greatest in irrigation installation?

    Any and all thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Paul L. Carter, CGCS


    Paul
    I would get a new Designer and fast, I am sorry that is NUTS. rock will cut pipe in time.

    Keith Pegg
    Zama
    The Bear Trace at Harrison Bay



  5. Kenneth Ingram
    Kenneth Ingram avatar
    18 posts
    11/13/2012 3:11 PM
    Tell him he should stick to designing septic systems. Kenneth Ingram, UMD.



  6. Rodney Crow
    Rodney Crow avatar
    0 posts
    11/13/2012 3:11 PM
    I have seen this happen quite a few times, although not intentionally. I cannot tell you how many times I've uncovered a blown-out pipe to find that what caused it was "gravel" laying against the pipe. As it was explained to me by a long-time irrigation designer (over 35 years doing systems), irrigation pipes actually vibrate while water is flowing thru them. This vibration is very faint, but is always there.....so eventually the vibration causes the sharp-edged rock or gravel to eat thru the wall of the pipe, leading to failure.



  7. Kenneth Rue
    Kenneth Rue avatar
    3 posts
    11/13/2012 4:11 PM
    Paul:

    If I may be blunt - I wouldn't want my irrigation tech or myself knowing that whenever a fracture in the line had occurred that I would then be excited to dig thru the mixture of gravel and wet soil to make the initial repair(s).
    Check your contractor's references, tell him what YOU want and what YOU expect because you have to live with
    the craftsmanship that he leaves behind.



  8. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    11/13/2012 4:11 PM
    Last I checked dirt packs pretty good too. Why would packing around a pipe prevent a blowout? What is a blowout anyway? pipes just plain bursting? You should tell us who this irrigation designer is so that we make sure we never hire him

    Heres another good reason not to do it: if there is gravel around the pipe water from any leak or break will travel laterally along the pipe instead of rising to the surface. When it does finally surface it may be quite a distance from the break ( like at the bottom of a low spot). Good luck finding the break.



  9. Heath Puckett
    Heath Puckett avatar
    0 posts
    11/13/2012 5:11 PM
    :?
    Blowouts are not an issue if it is restrained/thrust-blocked and backfilled properly. I've repaired many a pinhole leak on our 20+ year old system that were caused by a rock rubbing against the PVC...amazing what a little rock can do. You may not have any problems in a year, or two...or ten...but eventually that would be a nightmare. I'd be willing to bet this guy hasn't been in business long enough for his design "recommendations" to catch up with him.
    Do it right the first time... Only clean soil should go back in the trench.
    Good luck!



  10. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    11/13/2012 5:11 PM
    I have been doing irrigation R&M since 1973 and took college classes in irrigation design and installation. I never heard of backfilling irrigation lines with gravel. As I recall we were told that the pressure in the system is generated by the pressure of the pipe against the water, not the pump. If this is true it seems logical that the pipe expands and contracts. If it is vibrating against hard sharp rocks it seems logical that the pipe would be cut. Irrigation is paramount to golf course maintenance. Get as many expert opinions as you need.



  11. Rosenthal Gregg
    Rosenthal Gregg avatar
    11/13/2012 5:11 PM
    I have built 5 new golf courses, installed irrigation new on two older ones also never, ever used gravel on or around an irrigation system! That would be a bad mistake one would regret forever! Utilizing stone blocks for ends to keep pipe secure is one thing, stopping blocks as they would be called. Reality, one would want the nice fill to put around pipe when installing irrigation system to prevent pipe rubbing on stones as vibration does occur! Keep it simple and clean is the operational reality! Good Luck and don't allow bad advice to mess up expensive work as a new system is not money to waste!

    Gregg Rosenthal



  12. Ronald Kirkman
    Ronald Kirkman avatar
    40 posts
    11/13/2012 7:11 PM
    Paul,

    I did that in 1963 on one of my fairways. That was 50 years ago and the pipe is still there in great shape. Never a break of any kind.

    Oh! forgot to mention I used Galvanized pipe. So, tell your irrigation designer to use galvanized pipe and you'll go along with it. Other wise tell him to go pound sand.

    Capt. Kirk
    Retired Alien
    Needham Golf Club
    Needham, MA



  13. Paul Carter
    Paul Carter avatar
    0 posts
    11/13/2012 9:11 PM
    Amazing responses everyone. Just what I thought and what I needed to have some ammunition against this idea. I have a strong feeling our next meeting will not go the way he imagines it will.

    Thanks for all the responses and information.

    PLC



  14. Robert Shetter
    Robert Shetter avatar
    3 posts
    11/13/2012 11:11 PM
    Paul,
    Find another designer. When you do have a leak the water will follow the gravel around the pipe. Water could surface 100 yards or more away from the leak.(least path of resistance) You will have to dig many holes and spend a lot of time chasing them down. Stand your ground. JUST SAY NO!



  15. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    11/14/2012 6:11 AM
    Good luck at your next meeting. I imagine his ego won't let him do anything but defend his misguided concept. Ask him about the cost on top of it all being the wrong thing to do.



  16. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    11/14/2012 11:11 AM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: (To paraphrase) I have been doing irrigation R&M since 1973 and took college classes in irrigation design and installation. As I recall we were told that the pressure in the system is generated by the pressure of the pipe against the water, not the pump.

    Wha.....wha.....wha......WHAT? Scotty, pressure is LOST by that friction, not produced by it. Dude, in the Kirkster's most awesome eloquent words, you should have told your irrigation design professor to "pound sand". Although, I'm not quite sure what that would have accomplished other than some nasty abrasions on his knuckles.


    Okay, now that we have resolved that minor issue, I'm quite sure that we are all in agreement that this man should not be let close to a shovel, or any pipe, or any irrigation machinery, or any design programs. In fact, while you're at it, perhaps you could confiscate his pencils, drawing paper, drafting stencils, and any ability to make copies of his designs. That may require a court order, but I'm sure the ASIC would be willing to help you with that. At least with the pencils.

    Paul,

    I don't believe you need any "ammunition". You need two very large men with straitjackets to escort this gentleman quietly out of your board meeting. He is certifiable. I would be afraid to have him cook my hamburger. And since I sometimes frequent McDonald's, my standards are hardly up there.

    Dear McDonald's Board of Directors, please don't sue me.



  17. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    11/14/2012 3:11 PM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:

    And since I sometimes frequent McDonald's, my standards are hardly up there.


    Now you've gone and done it. There is an angry clown in your rearview mirror.



  18. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    11/14/2012 3:11 PM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: (To paraphrase) I have been doing irrigation R&M since 1973 and took college classes in irrigation design and installation. As I recall we were told that the pressure in the system is generated by the pressure of the pipe against the water, not the pump.

    Wha.....wha.....wha......WHAT? Scotty, pressure is LOST by that friction, not produced by it. Dude, in the Kirkster's most awesome eloquent words, you should have told your irrigation design professor to "pound sand". Although, I'm not quite sure what that would have accomplished other than some nasty abrasions on his knuckles.


    I am not doubting you, and I understand friction loss, but you have an pressurized irrigation system with no heads on, with the pressure holding steady, what is creating the pressure?



  19. Christopher Boldreghini
    Christopher Boldreghini avatar
    0 posts
    11/14/2012 5:11 PM
    My last course had a sewer system added to the surrounding neighborhood. They crossed the fairways in several areas and added gravel to their lines around irrigation lines. I did not want gravel around the irrigation, but was ignored. The lines have survived the first year, I guess it will take more time to cause a problem for someone.

    Charlie B.



  20. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    11/14/2012 9:11 PM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: (To paraphrase) I have been doing irrigation R&M since 1973 and took college classes in irrigation design and installation. As I recall we were told that the pressure in the system is generated by the pressure of the pipe against the water, not the pump.

    Wha.....wha.....wha......WHAT? Scotty, pressure is LOST by that friction, not produced by it. Dude, in the Kirkster's most awesome eloquent words, you should have told your irrigation design professor to "pound sand". Although, I'm not quite sure what that would have accomplished other than some nasty abrasions on his knuckles.


    I am not doubting you, and I understand friction loss, but you have an pressurized irrigation system with no heads on, with the pressure holding steady, what is creating the pressure?



    Damn! I lost my post. It was probably too long ayway!

    Scott, you need to get out your irrigation manual 101.

    0.433 in elevation change equals 1 PSI. Up.....or.....down.

    Before I lose this post, do your math.

    I am NOT maing fun of you or your instructor. Maybe he was giving another lesson that day?

    But this is irrigation 101.

    Check it out. Hell.....Google it! You done got yourself some bad info.

    Clay, I hope that clown isn't a lawyer!



  21. Michael Rogers
    Michael Rogers avatar
    2 posts
    11/15/2012 5:11 AM
    Hey Jeff,

    I, as a friction in the workplace specialist, find your remark anti-semantic.

    Friction affects the amount of power ( HP or Kw )needed to get water from A to B. It has been a while but I think each diameter pipe has their specific friction loss rating( no time tofind, copy and paste). Static water held at 9 or 10 bars has no friction but it does have pressure against plastic tubing.

    MR
    Semantics 101 Instructor



  22. Corey Eastwood
    Corey Eastwood avatar
    80 posts
    11/15/2012 11:11 AM
    Gravel around pressurized pvc is stupid.

    Corey Eastwood CGCS, Stockton Golf & CC, Retired

  23. David Brandenburg
    David Brandenburg avatar
    3 posts
    11/15/2012 5:11 PM
    The gravel will be a disaster if you have a leak of any size. Once that gravel enters the system it will be dispersed throughout parts of the system.

    Sand would be a suitable product for bedding the pipe, but I have never heard of gravel being used for a sealed system, only for drainage.



  24. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    11/15/2012 5:11 PM
    David Brandenburg, CGCS said: The gravel will be a disaster if you have a leak of any size. Once that gravel enters the system it will be dispersed throughout parts of the system.


    Seems like a slam-dunk point right there!



  25. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    11/15/2012 9:11 PM
    I heard that it's better to fill the insides of the pipe with gravel, that way if something heavy passes over top of the pipe, the gravel inside will help support the pipe and keep it from crushing and distorting.



  26. Michael Wagner
    Michael Wagner avatar
    0 posts
    11/16/2012 8:11 AM
    Gravel is for drainage not irrigation. I have heard of people using coarse sand around pipes and irrigation heads. I've tried it my self and it really makes digging easy in the future without the risk of stones wearing through the pipe over time. Stone around your irrigation pipes would be a monumental disaster in about 5 years.



  27. Jennings Dustin T
    Jennings Dustin T avatar
    11/16/2012 11:11 AM
    I am currently renovating a golf course that's been closed for 6 years. the irrigation system is close to 30 years old. It was poorly constructed and laid out to start with, but I have fixed over 40 leaks this season alone and at least 30 of them have been because of rocks rubbing up against the pipe after the water was turned back on. Tiny little pinhole leaks that may not even show up on the surface for weeks, but they will give you nightmares if you bury your pipe with gravel touching it. Plan to repair at least 1 leak per week with this method of pipe installation.



  28. Michael Wagner
    Michael Wagner avatar
    0 posts
    11/16/2012 12:11 PM
    James Schmid said: I heard that it's better to fill the insides of the pipe with gravel, that way if something heavy passes over top of the pipe, the gravel inside will help support the pipe and keep it from crushing and distorting.


    Hahahaha You better hope no one takes you seriously or you could have a lawsuit on your hands!



  29. Robert Crockett
    Robert Crockett avatar
    4 posts
    11/18/2012 8:11 AM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: (To paraphrase) I have been doing irrigation R&M since 1973 and took college classes in irrigation design and installation. As I recall we were told that the pressure in the system is generated by the pressure of the pipe against the water, not the pump.

    Wha.....wha.....wha......WHAT? Scotty, pressure is LOST by that friction, not produced by it. Dude, in the Kirkster's most awesome eloquent words, you should have told your irrigation design professor to "pound sand". Although, I'm not quite sure what that would have accomplished other than some nasty abrasions on his knuckles.


    I am not doubting you, and I understand friction loss, but you have an pressurized irrigation system with no heads on, with the pressure holding steady, what is creating the pressure?

    Your PVC pipe is HOLDING pressure, along with back flow prevention....Your PUMPS and possible pressure tank are creating the pressure. I don't care how tight your system might be.....w/o the pumps your static pressure will eventually lower to almost "0" depending on elevation.



  30. Timothy Walker
    Timothy Walker avatar
    0 posts
    11/18/2012 8:11 AM
    turn the pump off and see what happens to your pressure



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