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Assistants

79 posts
  1. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    10/14/2014 12:10 PM
    I have a Hispanic Assistant, Hispanic lead Spray Tech, and a Female Hispanic Crew foreman! But I also have two other minorities that are superstars but when I encourage them to move up and they say "na, I dont want to have to worry about everyone else doing what I told them"

    I applaud you Curtis!! Awesome!



  2. Gary Carls
    Gary Carls avatar
    19 posts
    10/14/2014 1:10 PM
    Sean,

    Not really sure why but over the years I had many Hispanics who were great on the crew but always seemed disinterested in moving up to leadership roles where they would be assigned to direct others. Not sure if it was a cultural thing or fear of getting more involved with paperwork, crew training and having additional duties. There also seemed to be some concern on how "moving up" would affect their existing relationships with the rest of the crew. Even the guys that were always anxious to learn more about turf science etc. still didn't seem like they wanted to lead the rest of the crew. Just can't really tell you exactly why.

    Gary K. Carls, CGCS, President - Oakland Turfgrass Education Initiative

  3. Zachary Wignall
    Zachary Wignall avatar
    1 posts
    10/14/2014 4:10 PM
    It seems that many are leaving the industry as well for many reasons. First reason I hear is quality of life and missing out on family-friends-social life time. Each region and golf course is is different. You always have that group of guys that go the extra mile like spending their thanksgiving day doing a drainage project at the course. You also have the younger genre of guys that don't want commit to that lifestyle IMO.



  4. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    10/14/2014 8:10 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:

    I love Cheetos


    That reminds me of a joke.



  5. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    10/15/2014 2:10 PM
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:

    I love Cheetos


    That reminds me of a joke.


    I'm glad someone got there.



  6. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    10/15/2014 10:10 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said:
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:

    I love Cheetos


    That reminds me of a joke.


    I'm glad someone got there.


    One of my Top 10 favorite jokes of all time.



  7. Brian Minto
    Brian Minto avatar
    0 posts
    10/19/2014 7:10 PM
    I have noticed several superintendents over the past year complaining about the lack of assistant applications. As an assistant, every time I heard or read about this I just shook my head. Everyone low balls assistants on salary and says that they are firm on the salary range. I walked away from school with 35k in student loans, then the interest was added. This has become a requirement to be successful in the greens industry. Working now as an assistant I am only making a very small amount more several years after graduating than I was as an intern. With the educational, professional, and hourly requirements of today's assistants, the low balled salaried position nonsense has to change. Even though it is a fact of life, having to make job decisions on whether or not you can afford to come in to work everyday and bust ass is depressing. Especially when you listen to some superintendents and their huge egos about what everyone is doing wrong as assistants today and how to progress through their careers. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't go the route of what I love to do. With the fact that assistants are leaving the industry left and right, I know that I am not the only one.



  8. Brian Minto
    Brian Minto avatar
    0 posts
    10/19/2014 7:10 PM
    Curtis Nickerson said: I think we are missing the 800lbs gorilla in the room....
    The youth of America, as far as I can tell, don't want to work hard outside busting their hump to earn a living. They'd rather sit at mom and dad's house, eating Cheetos, smoking weed and playing x box(Personally I prefer ...
    18 holes, $33k and free lunches( they took a beating on that one!!!) that was in 95 and all these years later I have never regretted doing what ever it took to get my first supts job...



    The game has changed. Superintendents of today are out of touch with assistants. I can see a group of superintendents sitting around a table talking about this exact issue in the exact negative way you presented in your post. The reason that everyone is running into schmucks is because the pay level is at schmuck level. Everyone I know who has been of value on a golf course and has seen they may spend the majority of their turf career as an assistant has gotten out. Not everyone enjoys being underpaid and overworked.



  9. Brian Minto
    Brian Minto avatar
    0 posts
    10/19/2014 7:10 PM
    Kenneth Cascadden said: From my experience in this business as an Assistant, you can only have 1 of these items.

    ...

    at my location was the problem. Now that I am here in Florida, I can't get anyone to respond. The bigger question for me is, in this day and age with smartphones, twitter, blogs, etc... WHY IS IT SO HARD TO GET A RESPONSE FROM ANYONE? Have applied to numerous jobs with little to NO communication what so ever. And Superintendents wonder why Assistants are hard to find????



    Interesting that you bring this up. With all the fiddling around with blogs, emails, etcs you would think superintendents would respond quickly to digital communication from potential assistants. I have been blown off by several superintendents who I have tried to get in contact with. A year ago I had a talk with an employer who I was leaving about the attitudes in the greens industry today. He was frank with me about several things, specially of the higher than thou art attitude today.



  10. Robert Wagner
    Robert Wagner avatar
    2 posts
    10/20/2014 5:10 AM
    Brian-
    Your frustration level is way out of whack. Take a chill pill and relax. Animosity in your three rapid posts is evident, and will get you nowhere quick. Over the last decade, the whole golf industry has changed, and will continue to evolve into what it will. My advice is to either get with it, or like you say, get out of it.

    Best,

    Bob Wagner



  11. Mark Van Lienden
    Mark Van Lienden avatar
    14 posts
    10/20/2014 7:10 AM
    Brian,
    If you want to see overworked under paid just talk to the person doing their residency at your local hospital. It's hard finding a job that pays you what you think you are worth to work when you want to.



  12. Jason Baker
    Jason Baker avatar
    12 posts
    10/20/2014 10:10 AM
    I have had problems finding Assistants in the past. The last one I hired, nearly two years ago, is not quite what we used to expect as an Assistant. I mean education and experience. He had worked on a courses but not with the "professional" training we seem to desire.
    I needed another personal who was willing to take on responsibility. A person to help supervise, and work along side, of crew. The skills in turf management do not matter much.
    I have those skills. I can teach anyone who wants to learn how to spray, fertilize, fix irrigation....
    When I was an assistant working 80+ hours a week and going to night school to get my second degree, I told my self I would find a better way for myself and my staff. I did.
    I do not expect my salary staff to work more than 50 hours a week unless there is an emergency. I very seldom see more than 50 a week unless You count meetings.
    But again, my Assistant, who does a fine job, is not "educated" or "experienced" as what most people Used to expect and some people Still demand for an Assistant.
    I am a mid range club with a High End expectations and Low end Budget.

    Hire an attitude and train from there.

    BTW, if someone is not responding to you there is a reason.



  13. Brian Minto
    Brian Minto avatar
    0 posts
    10/20/2014 10:10 AM
    Robert Wagner said: Brian-
    Your frustration level is way out of whack. Take a chill pill and relax. Animosity in your three rapid posts is evident, and will get you nowhere quick. Over the last decade, the whole golf industry has changed, and will continue to evolve into what it will. My advice is to either get with it, or like you say, get out of it.

    Best,

    Bob Wagner



    The generalizations I made may be out of place and of course they always are. The animosity in the posts was unintended and came across like that due to the longwinded responses in a row. The points I was trying to make are valid though. The enormous increase in the cost of education over the past 10/15 years coupled with the fact it can take almost 20 years to be in a position to afford the debt is keeping quality assistants from finding new jobs and barring hopefuls from getting involved.

    In this thread it was mentioned that a certain job posting for 32000 would have been making bank when someone graduated in the past. You would have to find a job for over 50000 today to match that if that was 15 years ago. The idea that everyone is just lazy today is not correct.



  14. Rodney Crouse
    Rodney Crouse avatar
    0 posts
    10/20/2014 1:10 PM
    There are very few guys out there today who want to do what it takes to be in this industry. There is no patience. Students want to graduate and start as a superintendent the next day. I know that I have more to learn in this industry before it is my time to be a superintendent. Quite simply put, people who do not have the golf course maintenance industry in their blood will not last very long. There is a huge step down in pay from superintendent to assistant superintendent and hardly any step down in the pressure to be successful. Everyday is an interview. I love what I do, but if I didn't I would be looking for something else to do...



  15. Kenneth Cascadden
    Kenneth Cascadden avatar
    0 posts
    10/20/2014 4:10 PM
    Jason Baker said:
    Hire an attitude and train from there.

    BTW, if someone is not responding to you there is a reason.



    Just because there is a "reason", does not make it right!

    My problem is with the people who call themselves professionals in this business, but their actions are self centered, unethical and disrespectful to others. I remember back in the day having to send snail mail to apply to jobs and I would almost always receive a letter back at least acknowledging receipt of cover letter/resume. Now you apply through email or company websites and never hear anything. Almost makes me laugh at how technology has improved in every sense of the word, but the social responsibility of employers has diminished.

    (In my opinion) If you apply to a Superintendent or Assistant position, you should get a response back. I have no problem with rejection letters, at least I do not have to wait around or try and guess what is going on. This is my opinion and I am sticking to it.



  16. Hardy Andrew
    Hardy Andrew avatar
    10/21/2014 11:10 AM
    As with anything, this business is changing. I posted an Assistants' position this year for 32-35K because that's what we could afford to pay. When the only decent candidate was hired he stated he was worth the 35k. My response was to show me. He's no longer here. I've been at my current job for 10 years, including the last 6 as Superintendent. I started as the Assistant here for $16/hr (with a 4 month unpaid winter layoff) and worked my tail off to earn everything I have. I was told by friends at that time that this was a garbage job. I made it a good job, and one that will easily be filled if/when I decide to leave. This sense of entitlement that I should make x because I went to this school and interned here just doesn't work in the "golf" world anymore. Plus, show me an owner that gives a crap about wage surveys. Facts are that you may have to take less money to get to where you want to end up. That's my 2 cents. Figured it was worth something given I was an Assistant for 11 years before that chance came.



  17. Zachary Wignall
    Zachary Wignall avatar
    1 posts
    10/21/2014 6:10 PM
    Great topic and discussion.



  18. Thomas Brown
    Thomas Brown avatar
    0 posts
    10/23/2014 6:10 AM
    It is a good discussion!

    Question: How would someone attract a prospective assistant superintendent to a golf course in the middle of nowhere to work at a public golf course that has a manual irrigation system that's 50 yrs. old, very old unmaintained equipment, with no benefits (other than free golf), and a 3 to 4 month winter layoff?

    My situation might not be the norm but I can't be alone with the limited resources provided due to the lack of play.

    Tom



  19. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    10/23/2014 6:10 AM
    Thomas Brown, CGCS said: It is a good discussion!

    Question: How would someone attract a prospective assistant superintendent to a golf course in the middle of nowhere to work at a public golf course that has a manual irrigation system that's 50 yrs. old, very old unmaintained equipment, with no benefits (other than free golf), and a 3 to 4 month winter layoff?

    My situation might not be the norm but I can't be alone with the limited resources provided due to the lack of play.

    Tom

    I cannot see where you can! I would think you have to either get lucky or find a rare gem on your crew that you can train up.



  20. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    10/27/2014 9:10 AM
    Thomas Brown, CGCS said: It is a good discussion!

    Question: How would someone attract a prospective assistant superintendent to a golf course in the middle of nowhere to work at a public golf course that has a manual irrigation system that's 50 yrs. old, very old unmaintained equipment, with no benefits (other than free golf), and a 3 to 4 month winter layoff?

    My situation might not be the norm but I can't be alone with the limited resources provided due to the lack of play.

    Tom

    Tom,

    You don't, you find someone who already lives in the middle of nowhere, that loves/likes golf, likes working outdoors, and has a few of the skills you need. My experience is "Fit" is more important than anything else. Some people like the work environment of a golf course.

    Sean



  21. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    10/27/2014 10:10 AM
    Thomas Brown, CGCS said: It is a good discussion!

    Question: How would someone attract a prospective assistant superintendent to a golf course in the middle of nowhere to work at a public golf course that has a manual irrigation system that's 50 yrs. old, very old unmaintained equipment, with no benefits (other than free golf), and a 3 to 4 month winter layoff?

    My situation might not be the norm but I can't be alone with the limited resources provided due to the lack of play.

    Tom

    Tom,

    You don't, you find someone who already lives in the middle of nowhere, that loves/likes golf, likes working outdoors, and has a few of the skills you need. My experience is "Fit" is more important than anything else. Some people like the work environment of a golf course.

    Sean



  22. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    10/27/2014 10:10 AM
    Brian Minto said: I have noticed several superintendents over the past year complaining about the lack of assistant applications. As an assistant, every time I heard or read about this I just shook my head. Everyone low balls assistants on salary and says that they are firm on the salary range. I walked away from school with 35k in student loans, then the interest was added. This has become a requirement to be successful in the greens industry. Working now as an assistant I am only making a very small amount more several years after graduating than I was as an intern. With the educational, professional, and hourly requirements of today's assistants, the low balled salaried position nonsense has to change. Even though it is a fact of life, having to make job decisions on whether or not you can afford to come in to work everyday and bust !%@*x& is depressing. Especially when you listen to some superintendents and their huge egos about what everyone is doing wrong as assistants today and how to progress through their careers. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't go the route of what I love to do. With the fact that assistants are leaving the industry left and right, I know that I am not the only one.



    Brian,

    Thank you for sharing your perspective. I benefit from hearing it from you. I agree with your assesment and give you credit for sharing it here for [u">our[/u"> benefit. Of Course, like Jack Nicholson said in "A Few Good Men" " You (we Superintendents) can't handle the truth". You are correct that the disparity between Superintendent salaries and Assistants salaries is a key problem. I am sure with some of us it could be ego but it could also be ignorance.

    Times have changed, the golf business has changed, and it is time to recognise the importance of a professional assistant with pay and a real work expectation over the former "indentured servant" mentality of "pay your dues and shut up". There might be 100 Superintendents who still have the juice to get their assistants to the promise land in short order. I know quite a few of these gentlemen personally and generally they are quality employers who provide a professional experience and pay a competitive wage. They should be more of a example to the rest of us. In my case my assistant has worked for me for the past 17 years. We are a team and I am never going to lose him to a entry level superintendent job because his pay, benefits, and quality of life are equally important to him and I. I want to keep him happy. The fact that we both have such a long history together at the same place makes our jobs much more enjoyable for each of us, our staff, and our customers.

    I actually have staff members who are working at the second assistant level who apply for entry level superintendent positions. The pay would be a increase and the experience is needed.

    Honestly this is a tough business to get a break these days. I see many qualified Superintendents busting their butt for what is essentially assistant pay, sacrificing personal time (working too many hours), and very little upward mobility opportunities. I think if we superintendents paid our assistants better it would have a impact on raising salaries across the board.

    Good Luck,

    Sean



  23. Steven Wright
    Steven Wright avatar
    0 posts
    10/27/2014 2:10 PM
    I personally appreciate everyones taking the time to respond. "All of the above" seems to be an appropriate answer to this issue. On my recent open job position I have gotten 5 inquiries. Two locally, word of mouth. Four via the ad here on GCSAA. Of the remaing four two are former Superintendents with 20+ yrs of experience living far away. Lastly, a couple from overseas that would need visa help.
    I think quality of life palys a big part too. Many younger guys are willing to wait it out in a familar area instead of making a 'big' move. I get it. It was different for me. I always looked for the next challenge. I've been very blessed.
    I do beleieve the assistant position will see some increased awareness leading to better pay too.
    Thinking back, maybe the standard set by all my former assistants also has me a little jaded.



  24. Paul Dowaschinski
    Paul Dowaschinski avatar
    1 posts
    11/1/2014 3:11 AM
    Interesting article in this months GCM magazine. It can be read on this website or follow the link -

    http://www.gcsaa.org/gcm-magazine/2014/ ... their-turf

    Obviously, a reason Superintendents have a problem finding Assistants is because there are fewer prospective employees. With that being said, wouldn't the law of Supply & Demand result in a higher salary for Assistants?

    Furthermore, what about people, like myself, who made mid-life career changes? I previously mentioned the Turfnet article about older people who don't necessarily want to become the Superintendent. Personally, I would be happy working for a Superintendent/club which sees my potential and grooms me to be the 2nd Assistant. I've only been working in the industry for 11 months, but have a feel what needs to be done on a regular basis and have performed my share of the dirty work.

    In my opinion, leading a weed eating crew isn't grooming. Being told what chemicals are being used and why, how to turn on/off the irrigation system and budgets/ordering is grooming. I'm sure someone out there is thinking - you have to earn that. Kind of like the indentured servant comment above.

    What I find funny about some of the "old school" leaders is that they hand a new person a weed eater and tell them to clean-up the lagoon banks or edge the bunkers on 18 holes. They then complain that certain spots on the 2nd hole were missed. Perhaps, instead of driving from the 2nd hole to tell the crew on the 16th hole to go back to the 2nd, they could have simply pulled the weeds themselves?

    However, I realize that Superintendents are not only there to manage the crew, their #1 priority, in my opinion, is to see things that most people don't and then diagnosing the problem. I admit, I saw some grass that appeared dry to me and then was told that armyworms caused the problem.

    But, what do I know? I'm just a wannabe AIT.



  25. Mark Van Lienden
    Mark Van Lienden avatar
    14 posts
    11/2/2014 7:11 AM
    So Paul,
    If I read this right, you feel that you should not have to do more than your share of what needs to be done of what you consider dirty work and should not have to go back and see what the superintendent sees as what makes a job done right because you want to be a leader?



  26. Robert Cline
    Robert Cline avatar
    0 posts
    11/2/2014 8:11 AM
    The Assistant Superintendent here makes $800 a month.

    Count your blessings...

    Robert Cline
    El Salvador



  27. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    11/2/2014 8:11 AM
    Paul E Dowaschinski said: Interesting article in this months GCM magazine. It can be read on this website or follow the link -

    http://www.gcsaa.org/gcm-magazine/2014/ ... their-turf

    Obviously, a reason Superintendents have a problem finding Assistants is because there are fewer prospective employees. With that being said, wouldn't the law of Supply & Demand result in a higher salary for Assistants?

    Furthermore, what about people, like myself, who made mid-life career changes? I previously mentioned the Turfnet article about older people who don't necessarily want to become the Superintendent. Personally, I would be happy working for a Superintendent/club which sees my potential and grooms me to be the 2nd Assistant. I've only been working in the industry for 11 months, but have a feel what needs to be done on a regular basis and have performed my share of the dirty work.

    In my opinion, leading a weed eating crew isn't grooming. Being told what chemicals are being used and why, how to turn on/off the irrigation system and budgets/ordering is grooming. I'm sure someone out there is thinking - you have to earn that. Kind of like the indentured servant comment above.

    What I find funny about some of the "old school" leaders is that they hand a new person a weed eater and tell them to clean-up the lagoon banks or edge the bunkers on 18 holes. They then complain that certain spots on the 2nd hole were missed. Perhaps, instead of driving from the 2nd hole to tell the crew on the 16th hole to go back to the 2nd, they could have simply pulled the weeds themselves?

    However, I realize that Superintendents are not only there to manage the crew, their #1 priority, in my opinion, is to see things that most people don't and then diagnosing the problem. I admit, I saw some grass that appeared dry to me and then was told that armyworms caused the problem.

    But, what do I know? I'm just a wannabe AIT.



    From this superintendent's point of view - you having knowledge of what is being sprayed, what the budget is, or what the procedures are for ordering, or how to turn on the irrigation system does little to help me or the organization. The things that you are referring to as "grooming" are not necessarily skills that a long term 2nd assistant would need to have to bring value to the organization. It doesn't matter if you can figure out what to spray, because that's my job anyway.

    On the other hand, supervising guys doing the "dirty work" is something that can possibly add great value. You want to know what the budget is? It all goes to labor - if you want to be of help go and make sure that is being spent, supervising the weedeating crew is a good way to do that. Own it. Live it and breathe it. Figure out every little in and out of it. Figure out how to get the most productivity out of each job.

    having "a feel for what needs to be done on a regular basis" doesn't help me either. Do you know it cold? can you make the right scheduling decisions every time? This is my reputation and livelihood on the line, so just know that I'm not handing it off to you until I'm sure you can do it.

    Supervising the guys doing the weedeating here results in them moving about twice as fast, and thats a big deal to me, that's valuable to me.

    If they missed a spot on #2 I would send them back too, and I would be pissed at whoever should have seen that before I did. For every 1 thing that you have to focus on, I have 20. I would have sent them back because its their job, not mine, not because its beneath me or something like that, but because they need to do their job, and do it right, and me not sending them back doesn't help that occur.

    To be blunt - your post describes someone who doesn't get it. Listen to what your superintendent is asking you to do, stop worrying about what you think is the best way to run the golf course. After 11 long months in the business you most likely have no idea how to do your bosses' job, and are just a "wannabe AIT". Someone who knows how to do your job is telling you how to do it. Be wise enough to listen.



  28. Paul Dowaschinski
    Paul Dowaschinski avatar
    1 posts
    11/2/2014 11:11 AM
    I appreciate your reply. "It doesn't matter if you can figure out what to spray, because that's my job anyway."

    It seems as if you are the type of person I wouldn't want to work for either.

    I'm an educated person who was lied to. I was told I was hired to be trained to do certain things now find myself in a rut. So, I will leave this course at the end of the year and see what happens.

    I'm not sure about your course, but where I work I had to buy my own rake. We have 3 guys taking care of the bunkers on 36 holes and have asked for new rakes a few times. Supposedly "corporate" hasn't approved them or a new sand pro etc...

    I could type more, but some things are better left unsaid.



  29. Hardy Andrew
    Hardy Andrew avatar
    11/2/2014 11:11 AM
    Right or wrong, this motto is relevant still in 2014.



  30. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    11/2/2014 11:11 AM
    I pop in one day on GC Super when I was looking for part-time work as I entered college. We're sitting outside his shop just chatting, and his Assistant drives by and waves at us both.

    "Pete," the Super says, "Once you finally get to be a Superintendent, always remember to not teach your Assistant too much. He might take your job someday."

    By the end of the visit he tells me that as it turns out he doesn't have any openings anyway. I wanted to tell him, "thanks, because I wouldn't want to work for a guy like you anyway," but I thought better of it. He'll determine his own future.

    He got canned a couple years later. His Assistant didn't get the job.



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