Importantance of the greens Cancel The title field is required!

1. Danny Arena

   

   0 posts
   
   10/30/2013 9:10 AM

   I recently accepted a position at a Club in Texas that has been run down and not maintained properly for 17 years. (I know, what was I thinking?) Anyway, the greens are contaminated with the original Tifgreen from 1973 when the course was built, encroachment from the 419 and common Bermudagrass collars, and spots of Mini-Verde that were sodded on top of bad areas a few years ago. Obviously, they are very inconsistent and a maintenance nightmare.
   My problem is that since there is not a Greens Committee or another agronomist on Staff I am having a difficult time trying to get Members and The Board to understand why the greens are not in ideal shape. I have went out to greens and explained the situation to some of the Board members but they are more worried about getting the sand traps in better condition.
   I would love to convert to an Ultra-Dwarf or even Tifdwarf but they can't seem to understand or don't care that the greens are the backbone to any course. Budget is a consideration but the lack of understanding is the main issue I face.
   Can anyone please relate any experience they have had with this issue?

   
   
   
   
2. Sandy Clark

   

   0 posts
   
   10/30/2013 9:10 AM

   Danny, if they don't care, don't push it. It is their course and when they determine it is a priority by all means sell the benefits. As long as they are not upset with the greens, just keep them in the best condition possible and provide them the product they desire. One of the hardest lessons we all need to learn is that it isn't our golf course. Deal with what is important to them and possibly develop a long range plan of what needs to be accomplished. If they all have a copy of your vision, you may find your priority eventually rising to the top of the list.

   
   
   
   
3. Sean Hoolehan

   

   0 posts
   
   10/30/2013 11:10 AM

   Danny,
   
   When starting a new job its always best to fix what the owner/members really want fixed first. Later when they see how good that came out they will be more likely to fix what you want fixed.
   
   I once managed a course that did 80,000+ rounds a year and had about 1000 sqft of tee surface on each par 3. I kept trying to get the money to fix them but the owner said no, he didn't want to spend the money. One day while doing a tour with him he complained to me about how a long par four's tee box was aimed at the rough (the turf surface was fine). I gave him some options, he choose rebuilding it. He liked it so much he decided he wanted me to rebuild the Par 3 tee's. Go figure!
   
   There are lots of problems we see as turf mangers that golfers don't see. When it comes to green surface's I have had more trouble chasing my own ego than my players desires.

   
   
   
   
4. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   10/30/2013 11:10 AM

   Sean Hoolehan, CGCS said: Danny,
   
   
   There are lots of problems we see as turf mangers that golfers don't see. When it comes to green surface's I have had more trouble chasing my own ego than my players desires.

   
   
   I know the feeling.
   
   Here at this property, I have 18 greens that are in the same condition. Old 328 with patches of TifDwarf, 419 and common all throughout them. After beating myself up trying to get them decent and quicker than they should be, I finally conceded to the fact that they will never be what I want. Our goal now is simply full coverage. It is what it is until we renovate. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Up until Monday when we dropped seed on them, we were mowing at .250" and had 5ozs/ac Primo on them each week. All greens have full coverage and still putt terrible. But the membership is understanding that it is out of my hands until there is money to tear them up!

   
   
   
   
5. Timothy Walker

   

   0 posts
   
   10/30/2013 8:10 PM

   Andy Jorgensen said:

   Sean Hoolehan, CGCS said: Danny,
   
   
   There are lots of problems we see as turf mangers that golfers don't see. When it comes to green surface's I have had more trouble chasing my own ego than my players desires.

   
   
   I know the feeling.
   
   Here at this property, I have 18 greens that are in the same condition. Old 328 with patches of TifDwarf, 419 and common all throughout them. After beating myself up trying to get them decent and quicker than they should be, I finally conceded to the fact that they will never be what I want. Our goal now is simply full coverage. It is what it is until we renovate. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Up until Monday when we dropped seed on them, we were mowing at .250" and had 5ozs/ac Primo on them each week. All greens have full coverage and still putt terrible. But the membership is understanding that it is out of my hands until there is money to tear them up!

   
   
   
   .250" Andy?

   
   
   
   
6. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   10/31/2013 5:10 AM

   Timothy Walker, CGCS said:

   Andy Jorgensen said:

   Sean Hoolehan, CGCS said: Danny,
   
   
   There are lots of problems we see as turf mangers that golfers don't see. When it comes to green surface's I have had more trouble chasing my own ego than my players desires.

   
   
   I know the feeling.
   
   Here at this property, I have 18 greens that are in the same condition. Old 328 with patches of TifDwarf, 419 and common all throughout them. After beating myself up trying to get them decent and quicker than they should be, I finally conceded to the fact that they will never be what I want. Our goal now is simply full coverage. It is what it is until we renovate. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Up until Monday when we dropped seed on them, we were mowing at .250" and had 5ozs/ac Primo on them each week. All greens have full coverage and still putt terrible. But the membership is understanding that it is out of my hands until there is money to tear them up!

   
   
   
   .250" Andy?

   
   
   Yeah man. .250" Quarter inch. You should see 328, 419 and common on 5ozs/ac week of Primo mowed at .250". They roll about a 4'. We've had plans to reno this course, basically start over, for about 6 years. But with a $1.7mil price tag, it got pushed to the wayside with the housing bust. Now that we are selling more houses again, reno talks are back on the front burner. New irrigation, entire green complex redo, all bunkers redone and redoing a few tees. All with regrassing tees and fairways to Celebration.
   
   My other two courses are TifDwarf. Putt great since one was constructed in 2004 and the other was rebuilt in 2008.

   
   
   
   
7. Robert Jones

   

   0 posts
   
   11/4/2013 11:11 AM

   Danny, very wise words from Sandy earlier in this posting, "it's not our course "I am in same situation as Andy with OLD 328 as in over 20 yrs!!!I am in the Treasure coast and I don`t believe there`s much of this grass left to be found in the state!!Some of our members are knowledgeable and others just play! This is an over 55 community and a executive course. As my old boss used to say "control the controllable`s"I have been here 2 yrs. and have we have presented the HOA with a proposal to redo 9 grns. this spring and 9 after that. We have a commitment for 9 and hope when they see and play on the new greens they will want MORE! Their budget is tight and they found away with our help. We are doing the bulk of the work in house to save$$.Good luck ,what we do and where we do, it isn`t easy!!!Green side up, Robert P.S.we are mowing at .180 and their consistent

   
   
   
   
8. Wahlin Scott B

   
   11/4/2013 12:11 PM

   For those of you who are considering re-grassing greens in-house, how will you kill out the old grass?

   
   
   
   
9. Robert Jones

   

   0 posts
   
   11/5/2013 12:11 PM

   Roundup/sod cutter/fumigate!!!!!

   
   
   
   
10. Wahlin Scott B

    
    11/5/2013 3:11 PM

    Robert Jones said: Roundup/sod cutter/fumigate!!!!!

    
    
    I ask because I had very good success with methyl bromide (not perfect) and terrible results from Basamid. Big difference in cost though.

    
    
    
    
11. Jeffrey Whitmire

    

    0 posts
    
    11/5/2013 6:11 PM

    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:

    Robert Jones said: Roundup/sod cutter/fumigate!!!!!

    
    
    I ask because I had very good success with methyl bromide (not perfect) and terrible results from Basamid. Big difference in cost though.

    
    
    Scott,
    
    Did you use a tarp to cover the greens after the Basamid application?

    
    
    
    
12. Wahlin Scott B

    
    11/5/2013 7:11 PM

    Jeffrey Whitmire, CGCS said:

    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said:

    Robert Jones said: Roundup/sod cutter/fumigate!!!!!

    
    
    I ask because I had very good success with methyl bromide (not perfect) and terrible results from Basamid. Big difference in cost though.

    
    
    Scott,
    
    Did you use a tarp to cover the greens after the Basamid application?

    
    
    I was told not to because it was important to move the gas up and down in the profile with irrigation. If I had to use Basamid again I think I would apply it, water it in and tarp over it.

    
    
    
    
13. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    11/8/2013 7:11 AM

    Getting back to the topic at hand, Danny sounds like you took on a big project, Kudoo's to you. I am/was in a simular situation as you find yourself. The club had felt it was more important to address other areas of the course then the greens even though they were push up greens with a mixture of 328/419 and common with no drainage. I fought the good fight just as you are and can reflect back on my situation pretty clearly so I can give you some advice. !st is that until you prove yourself to your board members by fixing what they deem important they will not listen to you about your greens. You simply have to build their trust. It took me three years to get that trust along with a very important meeting between the club and the USGA. This was a first for my club in spending money for outside advice but it was the most important meeting in my clubs history. Do not overlook the possibility of bringing in the USGA agronamist.
    
    Since you have not been at your club long I advise (if you have not done it already) for you to sit down and make up a 5 year plan on making the course better. This has to be all inclusive of the course and your maintenancen department as well as equipment. Break down this five year plan to single years in which you desire to get a certain amount done as well as the ramifications of not doing them. If bunkers are your clubs priority by all means delve into your bunkers first and prove yourself to them. It is so easy in todays world to impress your club(I recently went to Google Earth and Google planameter and mapped out my whole course including Pond, Bunker,Tees and Green sizes. I simply copied pictures from google earth to use as references). using these images and sqft sizing makes it really easy for me to give my board exact quotes in making changes. It also shows them I know what I am doing through facts. It is a very valuable tool I highly recommend. Ok I got off track a minute there. By using a five year plan you can try to set in motion what needs to be done for a better course. One example I had was in my five year plan I desired to change from pull behind fairway gangs to hydraulic mowers and another thing was installing a irrigation system (all we had was greens and tees and a very poor system at that). Once I had placed these items in my 5-year plan it allowed me to sensibly look at the timing needed for each one to be implimented like we really needed the irrigation system installed before we purchased the newer fairway mowers because I felt it was not a good idea to cut over the irrigation trenches with new mowers (just wait a year) I also knew that I needed a better irrigation system to grow in the greens with. So while I had all of these in my 5-year plan It was best to do them in a certain order and when explained to my Board made a lot of sense.
    When I originally wrote the 5-year plan I never had the tought of bringing in an outside Agronamist because I was intent on doing it from what I had learned. This changed after a very wet winter/spring when I was losing turf on my greens do to no drainage. I swallowed my pride and convinced my club that we needed their advice on helping us move our club forwards. After they surveyed our course and sent their recommendations to my club my Board saw that almost everything on my 5-year plan was also on their recommendations. I was then instructed to start the planning stages of completing my 5-year plan or achiving what needed to be done.
    
    Sorry this is so long but I thought it may show you how important it is to build a master plan before beating your drum for new greens. Yes you most likely need new greens but that is a major investment for your club, and you can not expect them to make that jump when you have only been there a short time. Make the smaller improvements which shows them you are capable and try to look outside the box on making your greens better for now. By showing your board that you are trying new and different things to try to make them better, you are also showing them that you have not left any stone unturned in the process. Maybe instead of asking to renovate all of your greens you get them to do a practice greens to see what it is like.
    Good luck

    
    
    
    
14. David Stout

    

    0 posts
    
    11/9/2013 9:11 PM

    +2 on making a plan. But regarding the basamid application, we stripped sod, deep tined went at 10#/1000 watered in and tarped. We never let it dry out by removing the tarps and re-watered and covered back up. After an appropriate amount of time we pulled the tarps and re-tilled allowing it to gas out. We then final graded and sprigged. It worked well for over 125,000ft2.