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Double Aerification

15 posts
  1. Christopher Flynn
    Christopher Flynn avatar
    0 posts
    4/1/2012 5:04 PM
    Looking for some feedback with those that have tried double aerifying their greens on the same day. I do not have a thatch issue but am just thinking about getting the most bang for my buck at one time.

    I have Tifeagle greens that are on a solid grooming/verticutting/topdressing program. They are vented monthly with 1/4" solids and have historically been cored 3x/year with 1/2" tines = 23% displacement. ISTRC testing says to continue with a program achieving at least 20%.

    While I am not being pressured, this is being considered as part of a revenue strategy. We typically close 3 days/year for greens aerification and will then have discounted greens fees afterwards for at least 7 days.
    A double aerification at our slowest time might provide opportunities to either eliminate one of the other aerifications or to go to a 1/4" tine where we would not have to close nor discount.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Chris Flynn, CGCS
    Orlando, Fl



  2. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    4/1/2012 5:04 PM
    Chris,

    I posed the same question to Todd Lowe with USGA. His reply was that recovery is a lot longer, more like 2-3 weeks. Just something to think about.



  3. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    4/1/2012 10:04 PM
    Andy Jorgensen said: Chris,

    I posed the same question to Todd Lowe with USGA. His reply was that recovery is a lot longer, more like 2-3 weeks. Just something to think about.



    I knew you were a poser Andy.



  4. Graham Kornmeyer
    Graham Kornmeyer avatar
    0 posts
    4/2/2012 6:04 AM
    Andy Jorgensen said: Chris,

    I posed the same question to Todd Lowe with USGA. His reply was that recovery is a lot longer, more like 2-3 weeks. Just something to think about.


    Did he say it was because you are coring into some of holes from the first aerification? If you minimized increasing the size of the holes, in theory, it shouldn't much longer to recover than from a single aerification.

    I am looking to double aerify this year as well, what was the best angle for the second aerification to minimize disruption to the first aerifications holes?



  5. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    4/2/2012 8:04 AM
    I started doing this about five years ago. It works great. We would punch (1/2" inner diameter tines), cleanup cores, topdress, blow in the topdressing without much concern for cleanup, then punch, cleanup cores, topdress and then do a thorough cleanup.

    Th heal-in time might be a little slower than a single punch but not much. Definitely less than the combined disruption from two separate aerations. The reason we would topdress and try to fill the holes after the first punch was for stability of the surface. I never worried too much about double aerating the same holes. Even if you tried you couldn't do it. Any angle slightly off the first angle will work. Of course you inevitably will hit the same holes but the same goes for seperate aerations.

    Good luck.



  6. Scott Tolar
    Scott Tolar avatar
    0 posts
    4/2/2012 9:04 AM
    Graham Kornmeyer said:
    Andy Jorgensen said: Chris,

    I posed the same question to Todd Lowe with USGA. His reply was that recovery is a lot longer, more like 2-3 weeks. Just something to think about.


    Did he say it was because you are coring into some of holes from the first aerification? If you minimized increasing the size of the holes, in theory, it shouldn't much longer to recover than from a single aerification.

    I am looking to double aerify this year as well, what was the best angle for the second aerification to minimize disruption to the first aerifications holes?


    Best angle is 37 degrees, per ISTRC



  7. Curtis Nickerson
    Curtis Nickerson avatar
    0 posts
    4/2/2012 9:04 AM
    Graham Kornmeyer said:
    Andy Jorgensen said: Chris,

    I posed the same question to Todd Lowe with USGA. His reply was that recovery is a lot longer, more like 2-3 weeks. Just something to think about.


    Did he say it was because you are coring into some of holes from the first aerification? If you minimized increasing the size of the holes, in theory, it shouldn't much longer to recover than from a single aerification.

    I am looking to double aerify this year as well, what was the best angle for the second aerification to minimize disruption to the first aerifications holes?


    I think ISTRC says something like 37degrees to the first aeration. I have done it and it does take a little longer to heal but not twice as long. You are creating twice as many holes but not twice the size... which we all know takes a very long time to heal.



  8. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    4/2/2012 9:04 AM
    Todd's article:


    The "One, Two Punch" for Putting Greens
    By Todd Lowe, senior agronomist, Florida Region
    May 26, 2011



    A typical rootzone from a Florida putting green. This green was aerated with ¾-inch hollow tines and is awaiting the second aeration once the holes are filled with sand.




    Golf courses in our region are beginning, or will soon begin, their summer aeration programs. Soil cultivation is quite contentious with golfers, but is much needed on Florida golf courses at this time.

    Florida putting greens accumulate a significant amount of organic matter. The nearly 12-month growing season in some areas of Florida, and the quest for green conditioning, encourages rapid buildup of thatch and organic matter. As a result, cultivation practices like core aeration, verticutting, and sand topdressing must be conducted to keep up with the pace of bermudagrass growth.

    Most courses core aerate putting greens three to four times with 1/2-inch or larger hollow tines. Ideally, the first aeration would occur in mid-May, with each subsequent aeration implemented every six weeks. With so many corings, the most common complaint we hear on summer TAS visits is, "The aeration holes seem to be just healing, when the greens are punched yet once again."

    An innovative technique to improve putting green playability without sacrificing turf health is to double-core aerate. Double aeration includes coring the greens, removing plugs, backfilling holes with sand, and then performing this same operation in a slightly different direction the next day. Large diameter tines (3/4-inch) are often used with this operation to increase sand incorporation into the rootzone and to dilute organic matter. When large tines are used, putting greens generally require only two double corings each summer.

    Double aeration can significantly reduce the number of closings for core aeration. Courses that normally close three or more times each summer can reduce to twice each summer with double aeration when large tines are used. Also, it allows the golf course to be open throughout most of May, a time when many courses allow reciprocal play.

    The downside to double aeration is that it just takes more time (10 to 14 days) to recover. Many golf course superintendents take advantage of the closure by performing other necessary practices like cultivation (verticutting, scalping, aeration) of tees, fairways and roughs, or additional projects like tree pruning and drainage/irrigation improvements in the absence of golfers. Summer months are slow for most Florida golf courses, and closure is more acceptable at this time of year, especially when it improves playability and reduces the number of aerations.



    Source: Todd Lowe, tlowe@usga.org or 941-828-2625



  9. Darden Nicks
    Darden Nicks avatar
    0 posts
    4/5/2012 10:04 PM
    I would not core, have not for 12 years and produced fine quality surfaces 365 days per year. Yes people do not understand, except a few on the program. the USGA will not publically admit that there is no need to core aerify because they would be going against what they have said for years. ISTRIC------- I have seen their expensive reports. Make sure if they are telling you that you have a figure of ORGANIC matter, that it is not a compliation of all five cores they pull from each green. IE: One plug may have 1% so if they take five samples then WOW you have 5% OM. Then most people panic, gotta get rid of it. Not true, even Bentgrass loves some organic matter. Coring was originally started in the Carolina's to remove red clay and put sand in. Bermudagrass loves organic matter the more the better. Many people confuse stained humates with organic matter yes even the USGA. Furthermore when you core you change your hydraulic load cpacity and the greens will dry out faster. Really when does it ever rain 5-35 inches an hour. We need to start focusing on an underground ecologically balanced ecosystem that will sustain itsef. Have not used curfew ever nor will, no Nemacure. I actually want 7-8 percent organic matter in my greens. Adequate moisture is alaways imperative. You can not over water bermudagrass greens. Except maybe in Cloudy El NIno winter( The only Primairy disease I have seen on bermuda
    is
    Helminthosporem /december in FL, and Basidiomyceteys, in february March etc. Just verticutt and and topdresss, and play may esume next day, rounds increase and revenue. All proven Science.
    I am sure this will raise some HUhs so ask away if need or try one green and see what happens. MOst greens are 90 percent sand so why pull sand out and put it back in? Just food for thought and only my opinion.
    God LUck
    Darden



  10. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    4/6/2012 6:04 AM
    Darden Nicks said: I would not core, have not for 12 years and produced fine quality surfaces 365 days per year. Yes people do not understand, except a few on the program. the USGA will not publically admit that there is no need to core aerify because they would be going against what they have said for years. ISTRIC------- I have seen their expensive reports. Make sure if they are telling you that you have a figure of ORGANIC matter, that it is not a compliation of all five cores they pull from each green. IE: One plug may have 1% so if they take five samples then WOW you have 5% OM. Then most people panic, gotta get rid of it. Not true, even Bentgrass loves some organic matter. Coring was originally started in the Carolina's to remove red clay and put sand in. Bermudagrass loves organic matter the more the better. Many people confuse stained humates with organic matter yes even the USGA. Furthermore when you core you change your hydraulic load cpacity and the greens will dry out faster. Really when does it ever rain 5-35 inches an hour. We need to start focusing on an underground ecologically balanced ecosystem that will sustain itsef. Have not used curfew ever nor will, no Nemacure. I actually want 7-8 percent organic matter in my greens. Adequate moisture is alaways imperative. You can not over water bermudagrass greens. Except maybe in Cloudy El NIno winter( The only Primairy disease I have seen on bermuda
    is
    Helminthosporem /december in FL, and Basidiomyceteys, in february March etc. Just verticutt and and topdresss, and play may esume next day, rounds increase and revenue. All proven Science.
    I am sure this will raise some HUhs so ask away if need or try one green and see what happens. MOst greens are 90 percent sand so why pull sand out and put it back in? Just food for thought and only my opinion.
    God LUck
    Darden


    There are a lot of generalities in your post. "It depends." Personally, growing bentgrass on pushup greens, core aeration was absolutely necessary to build a sand based profile. I'd never want 7-8 percent o.m. on our greens. I'm not into managing a mush-hole.



  11. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    4/6/2012 8:04 AM
    Darden Nicks said: We need to start focusing on an underground ecologically balanced ecosystem that will sustain itsef. Have not used curfew ever nor will, no Nemacure. I actually want 7-8 percent organic matter in my greens. Adequate moisture is alaways imperative. You can not over water bermudagrass greens. Except maybe in Cloudy El NIno winter
    Darden



    So not aerifying and then overwatering is a pathway to what you would call an underground ecologically balanced ecosystem?

    It's pretty irresponsible for anyone in this business to go around spouting that there is proven science showing no need to core aerify. In some cases not core aerating may be fine, but in others there is clearly a need. Spreading rumors that there is never a need is foolish.



  12. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    4/6/2012 9:04 AM
    Darden Nicks said: I would not core, have not for 12 years and produced fine quality surfaces 365 days per year. Yes people do not understand, except a few on the program. the USGA will not publically admit that there is no need to core aerify because they would be going against what they have said for years. ISTRIC------- I have seen their expensive reports. Make sure if they are telling you that you have a figure of ORGANIC matter, that it is not a compliation of all five cores they pull from each green. IE: One plug may have 1% so if they take five samples then WOW you have 5% OM. Then most people panic, gotta get rid of it. Not true, even Bentgrass loves some organic matter. Coring was originally started in the Carolina's to remove red clay and put sand in. Bermudagrass loves organic matter the more the better. Many people confuse stained humates with organic matter yes even the USGA. Furthermore when you core you change your hydraulic load cpacity and the greens will dry out faster. Really when does it ever rain 5-35 inches an hour. We need to start focusing on an underground ecologically balanced ecosystem that will sustain itsef. Have not used curfew ever nor will, no Nemacure. I actually want 7-8 percent organic matter in my greens. Adequate moisture is alaways imperative. You can not over water bermudagrass greens. Except maybe in Cloudy El NIno winter( The only Primairy disease I have seen on bermuda
    is
    Helminthosporem /december in FL, and Basidiomyceteys, in february March etc. Just verticutt and and topdresss, and play may esume next day, rounds increase and revenue. All proven Science.
    I am sure this will raise some HUhs so ask away if need or try one green and see what happens. MOst greens are 90 percent sand so why pull sand out and put it back in? Just food for thought and only my opinion.
    God LUck
    Darden



    Hmm....I have a nice case of Pythium going around....so based on your "science", I should water more and not increase drainage?

    I've seen it rain over 5" an hour. Several times. We receive 52"+ a year with about 80% of that in a 90 day period. It's funny how my push up greens on one course become a swamp with thin grass and nothing but mud, but my USGA sand based greens drain well and are ready for play within a few hours. Seems contradictory to what you are saying....

    When does a UGSA green perform the best? The first 3-5 years after construction. Why, it's growing on almost pure sand that is still relatively soft with minimal compaction and drains well. I'd rather be able to add more water, than have to worry about taking it away.

    I'm not saying you are wrong. I have heard of several courses that do not core aerify. Sure it works for them. But it doesn't everywhere.



  13. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    4/6/2012 9:04 AM
    Darden Nicks said: I would not core, have not for 12 years and produced fine quality surfaces 365 days per year. Yes people do not understand, except a few on the program. the USGA will not publically admit that there is no need to core aerify because they would be going against what they have said for years. ISTRIC------- I have seen their expensive reports. Make sure if they are telling you that you have a figure of ORGANIC matter, that it is not a compliation of all five cores they pull from each green. IE: One plug may have 1% so if they take five samples then WOW you have 5% OM. Then most people panic, gotta get rid of it. Not true, even Bentgrass loves some organic matter. Coring was originally started in the Carolina's to remove red clay and put sand in. Bermudagrass loves organic matter the more the better. Many people confuse stained humates with organic matter yes even the USGA. Furthermore when you core you change your hydraulic load cpacity and the greens will dry out faster. Really when does it ever rain 5-35 inches an hour. We need to start focusing on an underground ecologically balanced ecosystem that will sustain itsef. Have not used curfew ever nor will, no Nemacure. I actually want 7-8 percent organic matter in my greens. Adequate moisture is alaways imperative. You can not over water bermudagrass greens. Except maybe in Cloudy El NIno winter( The only Primairy disease I have seen on bermuda
    is
    Helminthosporem /december in FL, and Basidiomyceteys, in february March etc. Just verticutt and and topdresss, and play may esume next day, rounds increase and revenue. All proven Science.
    I am sure this will raise some HUhs so ask away if need or try one green and see what happens. MOst greens are 90 percent sand so why pull sand out and put it back in? Just food for thought and only my opinion.
    God LUck
    Darden


    I'm not sure that I've read something so far in right field that it's not even in the stadium parking lot. What happens when you tell a membership that you DONT need to aerify and then and year or 2 later, you actually have to? Wouldnt you're credibility be gone and question going into the future? Like anything in life, too much is never good and in this case, "You cannot overwater bermudagrass greens?" And all this coming from a guy who is no longer managing turf....



  14. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    4/6/2012 10:04 AM
    Comments like Darden's can make it difficult on others. I was in Miami in the 80's and my boss was determined we could have bentgrass greens year round because that is what they had at PGA National. He made a tee time for us in August the week after the PGA Championship. (bentgrass? August? Major in South Florida?) He wanted to prove to me that it could be done.

    http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/gcman/article/1987oct30.pdf



  15. Darden Nicks
    Darden Nicks avatar
    0 posts
    4/10/2012 2:04 PM
    Nothing personal gentlemen, just what I learned over the years that has worked for me. No intention of bringing up issues, yes to if push up greens with clay or no drainage, I would utilize that tool to amend what I could CORE exchange and replace. I am not suggesting overwatering at all, I am syaing that I have not personally seen it affect my greens except in cloudy rainy weather. The reason for pythium if it is the primairy disease, no obviously no extra water, its been a drier and warmer winter low humidity on coast line in Fl, litte wetter mid to north and cooler, that may very well be your primairy disease. I am sorry if I did not read that earlier that you had it. But from my experience only, anytime I sent an over night to a lab I got pythium back, bermudgrass decline, and 13 other results, and sent to many reputable labs. For me, personally, that caused me more confusion, until I understood how most of that is traditionally handeled. Lynn at A&L guys at IFAS Clemson State all do an excellent job, and certainly do not mean any disrespect to any of you all, with just my opinion or philosphy, its only been whats worked for me, so what I tell most my peers around here if it works for you and it feels right go with it. There are all kinds of variations to achieve results, and I think that is one of the neatest things about our industry. There is a high end club just north excellent peer, he has ability to 5/8 hollowtine 2 directions & double tripple graden, maybe uses 2 -3 lbs N/M on his greens annually, and they are fantastic, but also only has 20-50 rounds per day in winter, and can close 4 weeks at a time in summer or more, so he is essentially getting brand new greens every summer. With all sincereity I am truely sorry ya got pythium the, K-phyte /SA -20 could help or I am sure you have done the Alliette Fore. Ya fellows know what you are doing, again its just my opinion based on what I have seen and worked with here in FL on East vs West Coast for a short ten years. By all means I am not an expert and mean no disrespect to any of of you. If I state I dis-agree, its just my opinion. Ill have go back and re-read what I typed, it seemed to have gotten mis interrpreted or I did a poor job conveying my information. With all do respect to Todd I just saw him last week, we agree to disagree, he has a brilliant mind, I am not stating they are wrong if I did Ill need to ask for fogiveness on that part.
    Blessings to you all,
    Darden



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