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municipal vs private clubs

16 posts
  1. David Brudwick
    David Brudwick avatar
    1 posts
    8/22/2013 8:08 PM
    I really enjoy reading golf course blogs. Its interesting how everyone deals with the daily grind of working at a golf course.. By reading these blogs I'm starting to think municipal golf courses are getting a bad rap from private clubs. Here's a quote below from a fellow superintendent at a private club. I'm not including the clubs name....This blog was about golfer etiquette!

    " I am not a fan of a lot of ropes and stakes, as I think that it makes the course look very cluttered and like a municipal. "

    I work at a municipal course. How am I suppose to take this; using rope is not a bad thing. It helps keep people out of areas that you don't want them to go into. Do municipals have a bad rap for being trashy because we use rope and signs to keep golfers out of certain areas? Are private clubs that much better than municipals? Maybe I'm looking too much into this. Isn't it an unwritten rule not to bash other people's golf courses. Regardless if its a municipal or a private club! We should be helping one another, not criticizing other courses regardless of their stature. So if you write a blog you should chose your words carefully please.



  2. Nicholas Daak
    Nicholas Daak avatar
    3 posts
    8/22/2013 10:08 PM
    I am at a semi private course, which means we have a few members that paid a lot to get course started. Last few years they have struggled and realized opening to public is the only way to stay open. I too hate signs, ropes, even yardage markers. With all the outside play and people new to the course you have to have them. Took sometime for members to realize this now. Unfortunitly they ask for more ropes and more signs. I make all of my own so they look fancy and match. Even did a little free hand wood burning on my directional signs, people think they cost a lot of money but actually about $5 a sign.



  3. Ben Ellis
    Ben Ellis avatar
    0 posts
    8/24/2013 11:08 AM
    I have to agree that we are all in the same business and need to help each other out and not bash anyone. I have worked on private courses as well as public and military courses. I think its great to have differences.

    My boss is very opposed to stakes and ropes and signs, therefore we have almost none on all 54 holes. Yet I have worked at a private club which we had ropes all over the place. So its very different. Everyone has their own ideas and each course has to be different to meet their own individual needs, but in the end, we work at a golf course and do the best to maintain what we have with what we are given.

    Ben Ellis
    The Courses at Andrews
    Andrews AFB, MD



  4. Trevor Monreal
    Trevor Monreal avatar
    5 posts
    8/24/2013 12:08 PM
    Generalizations are just that. 80% of the time, or more, they are not meant to be offensive.
    Unfortunately, our culture/society is one that constantly looks for something to be offended by.
    I appreciate honest, straight forward conversations. Tough to come by these days with everybody choosing proper words while tiptoeing around egg shells.



  5. Timothy Walker
    Timothy Walker avatar
    0 posts
    8/24/2013 7:08 PM
    I'm public and have no ropes anywhere...I hate them...I use stakes alone for traffic control only where absolutely necessary...if super wet or a seed/sod area I'll rope off that area for as long as absolutely necessary.



  6. Keith Pegg
    Keith Pegg avatar
    0 posts
    8/25/2013 5:08 PM
    After 20 years in the private clubs and Green Chairman, Boards, Presidents change every year. I will say we had ropes all over one year and not the next. It was on and off at the bidding of the strongest man as a leader. Public slower for change but the same and Resort maybe the fastest changing of all. Resort managers went and came so fast that a revolving door needed to be set up. Superintendents need to flow and have an opinion only. Many times if you do and do well they will leave you alone, if over or under done the tide will bring more rules for us to follow.

    Keith
    Japan



  7. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/26/2013 2:08 PM
    David Brudwick said: I really enjoy reading golf course blogs. Its interesting how everyone deals with the daily grind of working at a golf course.. By reading these blogs I'm starting to think municipal golf courses are getting a bad rap from private clubs. Here's a quote below from a fellow superintendent at a private club. I'm not including the clubs name....This blog was about golfer etiquette!

    " I am not a fan of a lot of ropes and stakes, as I think that it makes the course look very cluttered and like a municipal. "

    I work at a municipal course. How am I suppose to take this; using rope is not a bad thing. It helps keep people out of areas that you don't want them to go into. Do municipals have a bad rap for being trashy because we use rope and signs to keep golfers out of certain areas? Are private clubs that much better than municipals? Maybe I'm looking too much into this. Isn't it an unwritten rule not to bash other people's golf courses. Regardless if its a municipal or a private club! We should be helping one another, not criticizing other courses regardless of their stature. So if you write a blog you should chose your words carefully please.


    The not so flattering "muni" term has been around for as long as there have been munis. To piggy back off of Trevor's PC point, there is a reason the term is used to distinguish one from the other. Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of munis that don't fit the "muni" profile. But the fact is that there are plenty out there that perpetuate the connotation. I work with low-end munis to high private and everything in between. The difference is measurable in a number of ways.

    Now to David's point. It is what it is. Don't let a simple term or phrase grind at you. I have never heard a superintendent from a private course use the term "muni" as a opinion to describe the abilities of the muni superintendent. It is, generally, used as a term referencing the muni golfer's lack of appreciation and care of the course that they play. Munis generally charge reduced pricing compared to the other courses, which translates into lower maintenance budgets and more wear on the course. Hence the need for stakes/ropes, the incredible number of ball marks, the unfilled divots, the wild west style of cart traffic, and the like. It's just a fact of the matter.



  8. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    8/26/2013 3:08 PM
    I work at a private club, but I love munis and I wish there were more of them. They are truly where the sport grows. Affordability and accessibility are huge attributes and I wish more municipalities would recognize the value that they offer their citizens for outdoor recreational opportunities instead of focusing on what they cost and trying to make them pay for themselves.
    I live in a place where there are about 3 public courses and no munis, but hundreds of private joints so the average working guy has some difficulty finding a tee time, especially during the winter.
    I understand your frustration, but I want you to know that there are a bunch of people out here who love a muni for what it is and don't care about what it isn't.

    Regards,

    Steve



  9. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/26/2013 3:08 PM
    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: I work at a private club, but I love munis and I wish there were more of them. They are truly where the sport grows. Affordability and accessibility are huge attributes and I wish more municipalities would recognize the value that they offer their citizens for outdoor recreational opportunities instead of focusing on what they cost and trying to make them pay for themselves.
    I live in a place where there are about 3 public courses and no munis, but hundreds of private joints so the average working guy has some difficulty finding a tee time, especially during the winter.
    I understand your frustration, but I want you to know that there are a bunch of people out here who love a muni for what it is and don't care about what it isn't.

    Regards,

    Steve


    Some great words of wisdom Steve. The one issue I have with munis and I'm currently at one and have worked for others, is for some in management they want to be more then what they are, yet for various reasons tend not to provide those rescources to get better then what they are. I guess sometimes I even feel that way about some of the things we do or do not get to do, where I have a standard I shoot for, but don't have the rescources to achieve it. But the munis I think we are thinking about are/should be vital for the growth of the game. Some place that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to be introduced to this great and fun game. A place that if golfer friendly, yet (and I know this is lacking in our system) a place that also teaches in a friendly manner the dos and don'ts (I know I learned from my dad, but I think the Tiger generation, not degrading Tiger, but all the people brought into them game during his time and influence did not learn from their dad or each other. Something I think they could do a better job on TV as well). Of course there are many munis that try to compete with the country club for the day.

    Just my two cents, no make that a penny, I want to be cheap and affordable.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  10. Steve Nelson
    Steve Nelson avatar
    0 posts
    8/29/2013 10:08 AM
    Life at the lowly muni- August edition:

    Summer finally coming to a close, will do about 9,000 rounds in August. Kikuyu fading out in some areas as gray leaf spot takes it's toll. Lost many trees this summer to various stresses, got only 4.5 inches of rain this year, accumulated salts from the reclaimed, borers in pines etc.. Note in bathroom wants to know who the brownkeeper is. Removed multiple homeless encampments from an adjacent alley. Local business people blame homeless problems on golf course (and coyotes too), despite fact that local liqour store and no tell motels cater to them. Mayor is concerned that kikuyu runners are encroaching onto greens, will attend annual meeting with USGA agronomist in September. Two brothers on crew left for Mexico to deal with family death, leaving me with 4 crew members for most of August. Golf committee wants to know if I can send someone out to wipe the dew off the benches in the morning. Another old couch dumped on course this morning- that's five and a bed this month. Ranger reported several dogs with owners on the course, told me to do something about it. Multiple golfers angry that chip and putt green is being rebuilt. It is an inconvenience to them and they are going to send a petition to the city council....

    On bright side, we don't use rope and stakes.



  11. Corey Eastwood
    Corey Eastwood avatar
    80 posts
    8/29/2013 10:08 AM
    And don't forget Gus you have the best weather in the world.

    Corey Eastwood CGCS, Stockton Golf & CC, Retired

  12. Gary Carls
    Gary Carls avatar
    19 posts
    8/29/2013 2:08 PM
    Corey and Gus,

    Amazing what the expectations are given the continually reducing resources. There still are two nice things about being at a true Muni operation in California. As Corey pointed out the first is the weather and at this point in my career more importantly....the upcoming CalPers payout!!!!!

    Gary

    Gary K. Carls, CGCS, President - Oakland Turfgrass Education Initiative

  13. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    8/29/2013 10:08 PM
    Steve Nelson, CGCS said: Life at the lowly muni- August edition:

    Summer finally coming to a close, will do about 9,000 rounds in August. Kikuyu fading out in some areas as gray leaf spot takes it's toll. Lost many trees this summer to various stresses, got only 4.5 inches of rain this year, accumulated salts from the reclaimed, borers in pines etc.. Note in bathroom wants to know who the brownkeeper is. Removed multiple homeless encampments from an adjacent alley. Local business people blame homeless problems on golf course (and coyotes too), despite fact that local liqour store and no tell motels cater to them. Mayor is concerned that kikuyu runners are encroaching onto greens, will attend annual meeting with USGA agronomist in September. Two brothers on crew left for Mexico to deal with family death, leaving me with 4 crew members for most of August. Golf committee wants to know if I can send someone out to wipe the dew off the benches in the morning.
    Tell the Greens Committe you'll let the homeless sleep on the benches. That way there won't be any dew on them in the morning.

    Another old couch dumped on course this morning- that's five and a bed this month. Ranger reported several dogs with owners on the course, told me to do something about it. Tell the Ranger that you'll get rid of the dog owners.

    Multiple golfers angry that chip and putt green is being rebuilt. It is an inconvenience to them and they are going to send a petition to the city council....

    On bright side, we don't use rope and stakes.



  14. Gary Carls
    Gary Carls avatar
    19 posts
    8/30/2013 12:08 AM
    Pete,

    Like the solution for the dew problem. Probably could do something similar to keep sand in bunkers dry. :)

    Gary K. Carls, CGCS, President - Oakland Turfgrass Education Initiative

  15. Steve Nelson
    Steve Nelson avatar
    0 posts
    8/30/2013 9:08 AM
    Corey Eastwood, CGCS said: And don't forget Gus you have the best weather in the world.


    In the words of the legendary Carl Spackler, "at least I got that going for me"



  16. David Brudwick
    David Brudwick avatar
    1 posts
    9/2/2013 10:09 AM
    Thanks for all your input. I realize now the word "muni" isn't a slap in the face..



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