PVC vs. HDPE Cancel The title field is required!

1. Michael Hummel

   

   0 posts
   
   9/9/2014 11:09 AM

   Wondering who is looking at a new irrigation system for 2015?? Which way are you leaning???

   
   
   
   
2. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   9/9/2014 1:09 PM

   I am looking to do a new system in 2016 and if I have anything at all to say about it, it will be HDPE.
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   
   
3. Tom Forsythe

   

   0 posts
   
   9/9/2014 3:09 PM

   Both of my courses have HDPE systems and I don't ever want to go back to PVC.

   
   
   
   
4. Michael Hummel

   

   0 posts
   
   9/9/2014 9:09 PM

   Steve:
   
   Have you ever had an HDPE system? or a hybrid with HDPE main lines and PVC laterals? Seems there is alot of confusion about these different systems as to the pros and cons..

   
   
   
   
5. Steve Wilson

   

   0 posts
   
   9/9/2014 10:09 PM

   We are installing a new system in 2015 and going HDPE. I have heard nothing but good things but am a little apprehensive just because of my unfamiliarity with it.
   
   Steve Wilson
   Milburn CC
   Overland Park, KS

   
   
   
   
6. Gerald Beierschmitt

   

   0 posts
   
   9/9/2014 11:09 PM

   Have a 12 year old HDPE system and have never had a broken pipe. There is no comparison. Steve, you will love it!

   
   
   
   
7. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   9/10/2014 4:09 AM

   http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci12 ... iping.aspx

   
   
   
   
8. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   9/10/2014 7:09 AM

   Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci1212-pvc-hdpe-irrigation-piping.aspx

   
   
   Thanks for the article Steve,
   
   Saw Jim Held mentioned in it, glad to see he is doing good. Great guy to work with when I was back in Indiana.
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
9. Michael Hummel

   

   0 posts
   
   9/10/2014 8:09 AM

   Good article.. There is some misinformation about the case study where they used concrete thrust blocks instead of joint restraints..
   
   As you know Steve there are many cases in Florida where they used thin wall DR 17 pipe fused to DR 11 fittings to lessen the cost to make it more competitive against PVC... I believe that moving forward the general concensus now it to only step down one size... I like to see a side by side comparsion of the same project using either or ,then debate the differences...

   
   
   
   
10. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/10/2014 10:09 AM

    Thanks for the link to the article, Steve. The article references LBCC. We are three years into the HDPE at Long Beach and so far no breaks. The article also mentions the potential issues with the bunker project at LBCC. Well, we completed the bunker restoration last fall and had to cut into several areas of the HDPE. We used HDPE compression fittings to make the repair connections and so far so good, no leaks at the compression fittings. I will also add the HDPE compression fittings are very easy to use and install.

    
    
    
    
11. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    9/10/2014 11:09 AM

    Hi Clay. What about your laterals? Are they all PVC?
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
12. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/10/2014 2:09 PM

    No PVC. HDPE throughout.

    
    
    
    
13. Michael Hummel

    

    0 posts
    
    9/10/2014 2:09 PM

    Clay:
    
    Those couplings usually need joint stiffeners.. Better.. (alot) to use electrofusion couplings if you have the machine... by the way is a another cost associated with these systems..

    
    
    
    
14. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/10/2014 3:09 PM

    Michael,
    
    Compression fittings are available up to 2". No electrofusion required.

    
    
    
    
15. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    9/10/2014 6:09 PM

    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: No PVC. HDPE throughout.

    
    
    Awesome. What about swing joints? How are those connected?

    
    
    
    
16. Timothy Walker

    

    0 posts
    
    9/10/2014 9:09 PM

    Swing joints connected with saddles where you drill a port in the line.
    
    I have a system with PVC mains, hdpe 2.5" laterals everywhere and sdr21 PVC pipe for bunker loops that have 100psi block valves.
    
    Installation is key no matter what...so far I have had 2 fusions blow apart... One was a butt fusion and the other was a lateral cap butt fused. Sdr21 loop splintered where it was pulled over a rock...
    
    Like I said with anything installation is key.
    
    This is my first season here and the system is 3 yrs old now.

    
    
    
    
17. Michael Hummel

    

    0 posts
    
    9/10/2014 10:09 PM

    Clay : Your system is not "monolithic" if you use a coupler. this is a term I have heard alot lately. So have you been certified to fuse pipe? No stiffeners?..

    
    
    
    
18. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/11/2014 4:09 AM

    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:

    Clay Putnam, CGCS said: No PVC. HDPE throughout.

    
    
    Awesome. What about swing joints? How are those connected?

    
    
    Steve,
    
    Holes drilled in the pipe and saddles attached to accept the swing joints.

    
    
    
    
19. Clay Putnam

    

    33 posts
    
    9/11/2014 4:09 AM

    Michael Hummel said: Clay : Your system is not "monolithic" if you use a coupler...

    
    
    I hope that doesn't keep you up at night.
    
    "So have you been certified to fuse pipe? No stiffeners?.."
    
    No.

    
    
    
    
20. Curtis Nickerson

    

    0 posts
    
    9/11/2014 8:09 AM

    Michael Hummel said: Clay:
    
    Those couplings usually need joint stiffeners.. Better.. (alot) to use electrofusion couplings if you have the machine... by the way is a another cost associated with these systems..

    
    
    Mike, are you a PVC sales rep or something? You seem to have an axe to grind with the use of HDPE

    
    
    
    
21. Michael Hummel

    

    0 posts
    
    9/11/2014 12:09 PM

    Curtis: No.. I am wanting to know how people are using the product.. I have used both PVC and HDPE in the past ...

    
    
    
    
22. Andy Jorgensen

    

    1 posts
    
    9/11/2014 3:09 PM

    Michael Hummel said: Clay:
    
    Those couplings usually need joint stiffeners.. Better.. (alot) to use electrofusion couplings if you have the machine... by the way is a another cost associated with these systems..

    
    
    
    Had a conversation yesterday about an HDPE system....if you spend $1m+ on a system, purchasing the electro fusion machine for $4k and doing the days worth of training is really a no brainer to be able to make additions and repairs yourself.
    
    Long term, you'll end up changing the satellites and heads before you change the pipe. This in turn equals about an 80% savings compared to replacing a PVC system altogether at the 25-30 year mark while the HDPE is still going strong.

    
    
    
    
23. Jeremy Hreben

    

    0 posts
    
    9/11/2014 6:09 PM

    Curtis Nickerson said:

    Michael Hummel said: Clay:
    
    Those couplings usually need joint stiffeners.. Better.. (alot) to use electrofusion couplings if you have the machine... by the way is a another cost associated with these systems..

    
    
    Mike, are you a PVC sales rep or something? You seem to have an axe to grind with the use of HDPE

    
    
    I was think the same thing. Every comment about HDPE, you come right back and point out the negative.If you haven't used it then how would you know? Or are you just repeating what you've heard? If so, then listen to these guys.
    
    If you are a salesman, or distributor, or a producer of PVC then maybe this isn't the right place.

    
    
    
    
24. Keith Fellenstein

    

    0 posts
    
    9/12/2014 10:09 AM

    What is the useful life of PVC? I have a well installed system with VFD's and Nimbus II flow control. I've read and heard about 20 years, is that reasonable to assume it would need to be replaced at or around that age?

    
    
    
    
25. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    9/12/2014 11:09 AM

    I've got a PVC system that has been in the ground for almost 30 years and it is a nightmare. I also have a whole bunch of Toro heads that have been there for the same amount of time and have had virtually no trouble with them.
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
26. Lee Strutt

    

    0 posts
    
    9/12/2014 1:09 PM

    Evening Guys,
    
    In the Uk we have been using MDPE & HDPE since the early 90's. There was very little resistance moving away from PVC systems and all the associated problems and onto the new PE products. The early systems that are now approaching 25 years are still going very strong. the ancillary components i.e. Pumps, heads etc get replaced more frequently with better components but pipe is still going strong.
    
    Generally all the joints are done with Butt welding on mail lines and fusion and compression fittings on laterals and valve boxes. Fusion and compression fittings are easily available upto 4" with allot of part options. We use allot of Plasson fittings (worth having a look on what they offer) that are very good and solid and very rarely let you down.
    
    As mentioned by some of the other supers, once you're on PE pipe you'll never regret it.
    
    Lee

    
    
    
    
27. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    9/12/2014 2:09 PM

    If I switch, where am I going to get my glue high?
    
    Glad there is some good discussion about this, although our system is only 21 years old, we have another course in our park system that has at least 40-year-old pipe (of various kinds) in the ground, so at this rate, I still have another 20 years on my system. (Well if things go as planned in about 15 years it will become someone elses's system)
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
28. Stephen Lane

    

    0 posts
    
    9/13/2014 7:09 PM

    I inherited a 100% hdpe at my current course (built on a landfill) that is 12 years old. The only problem with our system is the saddles that were used for the laterals and swing joints sometimes leak from the gasket (not to many leaks probably 5 in 4 years). This usually occurs in the late spring and late fall because the hdpe pipe contracts when it gets cool (our pipe is very shallow being on landfill) and or from the landfill settling. Other than that the system is great. For repairs or additions, our suppliers rent out electro-fusion equipment, although it would be nice to own. If it was me, I would go for hdpe and minimize the use of gasket saddles and use electro- fusion saddles.

    
    
    
    
29. Michael Hummel

    

    0 posts
    
    9/14/2014 8:09 PM

    Jeremy:
    
    I am not a PVC salesman.. The first HDPE system I did was in 2007 which was early on when PVC prices were changing weekly because of the cost of resin. ( we did sdr 7 which has long wield times since the thickness is .095 " on some of the main lines After that I did another project in 2010 which was metric.
    
    If my recollection is correct the first system is Florida was done in 2006 was in Palm Beach county although many systems existed in other parts of the country.( The Europeans have been doing fusion since the 60"s)
    
    The key here is healthy debate which the format allows... Thanks everyone for sharing..

    
    
    
    
30. Andy Jorgensen

    

    1 posts
    
    9/15/2014 8:09 AM

    Michael Hummel said: Jeremy:
    
    I am not a PVC salesman.. The first HDPE system I did was in 2007 which was early on when PVC prices were changing weekly because of the cost of resin. ( we did sdr 7 which has long wield times since the thickness is .095 " on some of the main lines After that I did another project in 2010 which was metric.
    
    If my recollection is correct the first system is Florida was done in 2006 was in Palm Beach county although many systems existed in other parts of the country.( The Europeans have been doing fusion since the 60"s)
    
    The key here is healthy debate which the format allows... Thanks everyone for sharing..

    
    
    
    This first HDPE high pressure system was installed many moons ago - natural gas, of course.