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double cutting greens

13 posts
  1. David Brudwick
    David Brudwick avatar
    1 posts
    4/2/2012 8:04 PM
    Just A quick question for everyone. I'm looking for a little more consistency in green speed. Is there a problem double cutting greens every day or every other?? I mow at .130 I don't own a roller. What does everyone think???
    Dave



  2. Dalton Andrew
    Dalton Andrew avatar
    4/2/2012 8:04 PM
    What's your fertility, water and cultural practice schedule like and do you spray growth regulators? Can you buy a roller? There is tons of data that support that light weight rolling is worth the purchase. I would personally stay away from double cutting everyday, and double cutting every other may create inconsistencies, but that's just my opinion some others on here may support the idea.

    Andy



  3. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    4/3/2012 9:04 AM
    To be honest you need to provide more information like what type of turf you have and what are your stress conditions like.

    I have TifEagle greens and they can hold up to double cutting without too much of a problem at least until we get in the upper 90's when they tend to stress more. I do not think that would be the same with Tif Dwarf or northern grasses.

    One issue you will have from double cutting in the increase in tire tracks from your mower (unless you are walk mowing). Without a rolling program this could leave you even bumpier then normal which would slow the ball speed down a bit.

    I would push for a roller because they have done research and determined that rolling every other day will increase your ball speed even with mowing every other day.

    My personal advice is to purchase the book from the GCSAA on managing the speed of the green (or something like that). I have read it and found it a very good read for myself and my board members.



  4. Nicholas Johnson
    Nicholas Johnson avatar
    0 posts
    4/3/2012 11:04 AM
    I believe the book James is referring to is, "The Superintendents Guide to Controlling Putting Green Speed" by Thomas Nikolai. It has a lot of great information in it. Like the mow a day roll a day program referred to above, as well as chapters on how other variables affect green speed such as weather, fertility, PGR's etc... All of the information is presented in a user friendly format so it can be read with ease by non-superintendents.

    There is also a part about exactly what you are asking about, double cutting on a frequent basis. His conclusions were that it can be done and will eventually result in increases in green speed, but will cause undue stresses to the plant which could open up a myriad of other problems.

    I will usually double cut (Triplex @ around .100 on Tifeagle) leading up to a big event, but the rest of the time I believe the light weight roller is the way to go to maintain consistent green speed.



  5. David Brudwick
    David Brudwick avatar
    1 posts
    4/3/2012 7:04 PM
    The roller just isn't in the budget. I have T 1 greens, I spoon feed my greens and verticut every two weeks plus I'm starting a top dressing program this year. I will also be using Primo this year. When the weather gets really hot the top dressing and verticutting stop. I'll look into buying that book. Thanks for your responses...... Dave



  6. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    4/3/2012 11:04 PM
    David Brudwick said: The roller just isn't in the budget. I have T 1 greens, I spoon feed my greens and verticut every two weeks plus I'm starting a top dressing program this year. I will also be using Primo this year. When the weather gets really hot the top dressing and verticutting stop. I'll look into buying that book. Thanks for your responses...... Dave


    If the roller is not in the budget this year then lower the HOC. You have T1, it can handle the lower HOC. You will most likely achieve the results you're looking for from one cut at .120 - .110. T1 can get a bit puffy especially at higher HOC so part of the issue may be thatch accumulation. Beat-up the turf in the spring, early summer, and fall with aggressive aerifaction, verticutting, and topdressing.

    You may want to push for the roller in your next budget. The labor savings with the roller verses the labor from double cutting on a daily basis will justify the purchase of a roller. The ROI may take a couple years but the increased turf health will add to the value of the roller in year 1.



  7. Frank Zamazal
    Frank Zamazal avatar
    0 posts
    4/7/2012 1:04 PM
    I double cut 6 days a week with a triplex at .085 and smooth rollers....light fert weekly with PRIMO...no problems...grooved rollers would provide dirt @ .085"...so at .130" you should have no problem...and yes....buy a couple of rollers....I roll 4 days a week on top of the double cut....greens are pure after the roll...consistently over a 11...and happy members.



  8. Curtis Hoffman
    Curtis Hoffman avatar
    0 posts
    4/9/2012 6:04 PM
    That T1 can tolerate being cut lower than .130 and absolutely enjoys frequent topdressings and verticuttings! I'd also recommend a proactive PGR program. It seems budget issues limit what you're able to do, so anything within your means to achieve your goal. We recently put a T1/Alpha blend on several of our greens (grown on our massive 53,000 sq.ft nursery). We've noticed that this blend produces much more OM than straight T1, so be happy you don't have to deal with that as much. But as previously mentioned, frequent rolling will be your best option, although it seems like it isn't an option in your case. Good luck with your quest.

    Curtis Hoffman



  9. Darden Nicks
    Darden Nicks avatar
    0 posts
    4/10/2012 1:04 PM
    Yes if have man power or money. We usually mowed Tif Eagle at .o75 but had to alter bed bar on flex actual after cut height was more like .090, but attitude, style of knives, thickness, verticutting, topdressing. If a sand based green no need to core that will make them slower. We also used Jacobsen Eclipse Hybred at .125 and cut more leaf blade per square inch, and yeilded more verdure, than with the flexes, and that worked well. If you do not have a roller I would not worry about it, but are ya Tri plexn', walking, fixed head? I usually ended up preferrring the Toro 1000's fixed head on ultradwarfs, but if your getting Bent ready for summer, just groom watch root depth and topdress. I usually raised the Bent in summer to a minimum of where ya are now, and would even have a few mowers tasken apart, so I had a good reason that I couldn't mow. Could also brush grass first with sand pro drag broom then mow. But just viewing earlier posts What is your mission? Who is the customer, and what is revenue source? If it is a course that is older mowing out a tircherariry cuts around greens to approach height half inch or lower if any slopes of mounds will enhance the challenge. But again what is the Supply & Demand? If you are counting on rounds and revenue, you may loose revenue if too fast, I can even remember the race to the bufffet line at one private club and they complained too fast didnt get to lunch on time. I concur with everyone else ask your self all these questions and make a list. Is it one person made a comment? If so he should adjust or she their putting stroke. These TV TOURNaments have blown this ball friction thing out of water with Johnny Miller shouting out numbers like the lottery. One of few thiings I agree with on USGA is their postings for speeds 4-6 is slow 6-8 is medium to fast 8-10 is fast. I think I put that flier up on every corner. What ever you do if can avoid NEVER put a board that list the speeds. And they do not make Stimpmeters anymore, they are great for leveling irrigation heads!!! 99 percent of people do not comprehend the correlation bwetween Sunday TV golf and the numbers. I stimped a concrete sidewalk and got a smooth 14, so where these people are throwing out these high end request really do not comprehend Pasquals or Pavlov's maybe that was the one who rang the bell and the dog ate anyway one of them 2 folks. laws of physics on friction & force. It takes a lot $$$ to maintain an 11 to 12 and I do not think I have ever seen anyone loose their job because they had grown too much grass, so be careful. My personal goal is too always have consistency with color, and speed. The greenest and fastest now thats a challenge. Anyone can turn off water starve the plant and get a 12 to 13 daily, but I would not sleep well at night if it were me, but just my opinion. Always try something new on a nursery or chipping green first or out of sight etc.

    Good Luck,
    D



  10. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    4/11/2012 7:04 AM
    Let me tell you a story about cutting heights and green speeds from last year. To start off with I have TifEagle Greens and generally cut between .125" and .130" with a triplex mower.

    Last year during the summer my greens mower started scalping right after installing a new set of super thin bedknives. We had to raise the height of cut to .150" to get them to stop scalping (we have this same issue every summer when our greens gets thick). Due to excessive summer heat verticutting stresses the greens too much to continue program through the summer. two weeks after raising our mowers to .150" I started getting compliments about how fast the greens were. At first it was just a few members but as the week went by more and more compliments continued to come in so I stimped the greens to to see what they had and found them rolling 10.5 to 11' on the stimp. So I left the HOC at .150" for the rest of the year.

    Now I still do not know what the effects are in terms of OM buildup in the greens due to a very warm winter but so far they look about the same as every year.

    My point is that low HOC's is not the only way to get faster greens speeds. In reality I believe that it is the tightness of the the turf canopy. by having higher healthier turf I was able to produce the desired results of my club without stressing the greens. I still kept my fertility and growth regulator programs going but found I needed less fungicides. I would roll my greens once per week with a pull behind roller. but that was it.

    I am currently still at that HOC but it looks like during the spring transition period that lowering the HOC to help with speeds may be the way to go.



  11. Baker Daniel
    Baker Daniel avatar
    4/11/2012 2:04 PM
    To the original topic - I'd echo what most everyone else says. Topdress, verticut and keep your mowers sharp. Also, the Primo will help a great deal.

    For James - We get some rather hot days here in south Texas and night time temps in the 80's regularly in the summer. This is prime time for the verticutter on the TifEagle. We don't go aggressive but it runs at least once a week. Your 10.5 at 150 is probably due to the consistency of the turf at that height after it all filled in to that height. Over time I can see real problems coming up with grain and later down the road OM and thatch accumulation.



  12. David Brudwick
    David Brudwick avatar
    1 posts
    4/14/2012 10:04 AM
    These are great comments.... We do not have the demand for the high end golfers. We are a city owned par 32 golf course with a range and a nice practice area. One of my thoughts is if we get better green speed maybe some of the better golfers will come out and try our course . Everything now is about making money. Maybe I just need to relax and caterer to the high handicapper's and the families that bring there children out just to have fun. I just want everyone to enjoy there experience at our golf course. Thanks again for all the great comments!!!! Dave



  13. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    4/14/2012 1:04 PM
    Dave,

    If that is your clientele, I would do what I could to cater to them. I think speed is overrated in my opinion, smoothness is more important. I think we sometimes make the game so hard and then wonder where the players are going. Just my opinion though.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

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