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Painting greens

28 posts
  1. Andy Scott
    Andy Scott avatar
    0 posts
    9/19/2011 5:09 PM
    Hi All, I am looking at different options out there for painting my Champion greens this winter. I have done a couple of tee boxes in the past, ending with leaking seals. I have looked at Grass Greenzit, Endurant, and other colorants. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Andy Scott, GCS
    Newnan Country Club



  2. Stephen Moffitt
    Stephen Moffitt avatar
    0 posts
    9/19/2011 5:09 PM
    Par works great



  3. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    9/19/2011 6:09 PM
    Par or Foursome. That's our plan this winter.



  4. Harrison John K
    Harrison John K avatar
    9/19/2011 8:09 PM
    What rate of PAR works the best on dormant or semi-dormant greens?



  5. Stephen Moffitt
    Stephen Moffitt avatar
    0 posts
    9/20/2011 5:09 AM
    We go with 16 oz/A on Tifeagle Greens. Great results and we spray on a weekly basis.



  6. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    9/20/2011 8:09 AM
    You are going to have leaking seals with a centrifugal pump. I have been told that running a few cups of sprayable gypsum through the system for a while will cure this, but have never tried it. Paint will also mess up the flow sensor in the Toro Sprayer. I have a rather inexpensive bed-mounted sprayer with a diaphragm pump and no flow sensor that we use for paint. This sprayer is ideal for this.



  7. Lockhart Jeremiah S
    Lockhart Jeremiah  S avatar
    9/20/2011 3:09 PM
    We got a product called AquaStripe from a local retailer. Last year we applied the paint with a hose end applicator that was connected to the quick coupler. This year I think we will use a 55 gal sprayer that was given to us and apply it by the wand. The leaking seals can be solved if you switch to a roller pump. I hope this helps.

    Jeremiah Lockhart, GCS
    River Pointe GC



  8. Michael Norton
    Michael Norton avatar
    0 posts
    9/21/2011 6:09 PM
    You guys that are using ONLY "Par", do your greens go all the way dormant? Also, when do you make the first application?

    Thanks



  9. Stephen Moffitt
    Stephen Moffitt avatar
    0 posts
    9/21/2011 10:09 PM
    Usually before they go dormant. I have heard of guys using it late in to the spring and early in to the fall. Its up to you. If you have a nursery give it a shot and see for yourself.



  10. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    9/22/2011 7:09 AM
    We made our first application of Par yesterday at the 16oz/ac rate. Liked what I saw, except for the streaks from clogged nozzles. I think we will wait a couple of weeks before starting a weekly application program. I have been told that after a couple of full rate apps, that we will be able to back it down to 8-10ozs/ac after that. We'll see. We don't get a hard frost until mid-December, so, if we can get color onto the leaf blade before that, I think we will be better off. I'm hoping the darker green color will also allow it to hold some heat and help the Bermuda maintain some color throughout the winter.



  11. Alexander Joseph E
    Alexander Joseph E avatar
    9/22/2011 12:09 PM
    Have you considered renting an Airless? This is the right equipment for applying paint to almost anything. Easy to work with as long as the paint as been properly screened. Secondly, the final result is best when paint is applied to only one stand of turf.

    :mrgreen:



  12. Schott Matthew
    Schott Matthew avatar
    9/26/2011 7:09 AM
    Last year we used Lesco turf paint at 2.5 gal to 175 gal of water and applied through a Toro Multipro 1250. Only had to apply twice and held good color all winter. We used the hose with the green Lesco spray gun with a 2GPM nozzle and got about 3 holes per tank. We have a flow sensor that stopped working so we just swap that in when we paint. We have also been using Par all season long so we hope to only paint once this year. Mini-Verde in southeast GA. Oh and Andy, I actually had to start adding a little dye to my Par because I couldn't see where I was spraying after several apps, I can't imagine backing it down. And if you spray right after topdressing it dyes the sand and the color lasts a really long time.



  13. Andy Scott
    Andy Scott avatar
    0 posts
    1/17/2012 4:01 PM
    Guys,

    Just thought I would follow up and give some feedback on what I used. I ended up using Chloroplast by R.A.I.N. Biologics. It's a pigment similar to Par, Foresome, etc. I went with a 16 oz/Ac rate and have sprayed only 3 times this fall. Greens have excellent color, and price is great too, especially compared to painting. This will definitely be in my plan in the future. Thanks for all the responses and advice.

    Andy Scott, GCS
    Newnan CC



  14. Jeffrey Scott
    Jeffrey Scott avatar
    8 posts
    1/19/2012 10:01 AM
    Although I have much more experience at snow plowing than painting greens, I am offering an observation that I made while demoing the TB 200 grooming brush on bermuda greens in Alabama during the winter months. The brush is infinitely adjustable in it's aggressiveness, and set very aggressively does a great job of going deep in the canopy to stand the grass blades more vertical. This allows a deeper penetration and a more thorough coverage of the paint application on the leaf blade. This practice may save an app or two over the course of the dormant season.
    Incidently, Mike Hill, pres of Specialty Turf in AL has recently taken over the distributorship of the TB 200 in AL and surrounding states that he covers. Call Mike at 205-337-8248 for a demonstration!!

    Jeff Scott, CGCS retired,
    Midwest Turf Specialties
    630-688-5192



  15. Fleegel Timothy
    Fleegel Timothy avatar
    1/19/2012 12:01 PM
    Wasn't expecting a TB200 pitch in this thread.



  16. Jeffrey Scott
    Jeffrey Scott avatar
    8 posts
    1/20/2012 9:01 AM
    I'm surprised you took it that way, Tim. The directions for use of any paint product suggest surface preparation as the first consideration if you expect good results. With the time and expense involved when making a colorant application, I would think that surface preparation would be a pretty high priority. Think how far ahead of the curve you will be when you have to make a colorant application!! You will already know that the TB 200 will be your key to success. Of course you already know that the TB 200 will enhance your mowing, rolling and topdressing procedures that you use everyday to provide the ultimate in putting quality, so now you can add colorant application to the uses of this versatile machine.

    Jeff Scott, CGCS retired
    Midwest Turf Specialties,LLC
    SGM Industries,LLC



  17. Andy Scott
    Andy Scott avatar
    0 posts
    1/20/2012 1:01 PM
    Really not much prep time for me, I just make sure greens are clean of debris. It takes me about 1.5-2 hrs., and that is to mix and spray. I've gotten pretty accurate with my MultiPro 1200.



  18. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    1/20/2012 5:01 PM
    Jeffrey Scott said: I'm surprised you took it that way, Tim. The directions for use of any paint product suggest surface preparation as the first consideration if you expect good results. With the time and expense involved when making a colorant application, I would think that surface preparation would be a pretty high priority. Think how far ahead of the curve you will be when you have to make a colorant application!! You will already know that the TB 200 will be your key to success. Of course you already know that the TB 200 will enhance your mowing, rolling and topdressing procedures that you use everyday to provide the ultimate in putting quality, so now you can add colorant application to the uses of this versatile machine.

    Jeff Scott, CGCS retired
    Midwest Turf Specialties,LLC
    SGM Industries,LLC



    Jeff,

    Anytime I have painted greens, I have found the paint sticks better to tissue than dirt. If I brushed the greens to stand up the turf, then painted, the turf would be longer than my desired HOC. That would make me want to mow and hence would mow all the tissue off leaving a thin canopy.

    We are using pigments now on our greens, and the absolute last thing I would consider doing is thinning out my canopy while we are not growing. Can I get your thoughts on this?



  19. Jeffrey Scott
    Jeffrey Scott avatar
    8 posts
    1/21/2012 11:01 AM
    Andy,
    My first experience using the brush on bermuda was at a 36 hole course in northern AL - 18 bent greens and 18 bermuda greens. I had already demoed and sold a number of brushes in the north, but this was my first time to try it on bermuda. This particular course did not color the greens - they played on dormant bermuda during the winter months. The supt was blown away when he saw how much of the dormant tissue could be brushed out of the canopy which made for much smoother and faster putting conditions. The supt and I discussed what effect this surface prep would make IF he were coloring the greens - his comment was that yes, it did thin the canopy of that dormant bermuda, but his thought (and mine) was that instead of applying paint to that dense mat of dormant tissue which impeded deep penetration, he would get a deeper penetration and a more thorough coverage of the leaf blade, so the overall effect would be a much better and longer lasting paint application with the added benefit of thinning that canopy which would provide a better ball roll. Thinking about it more, this was not an ultradwarf variety, so perhaps the surface prep there would not be as beneficial. I can see how you would probably not want to thin that tight turf that isn't growing - as usual, every situation presents it's own unique best management practices.
    I also ran it on his bent greens which had recently been topdressed - I knew from past experience that he would be impressed with how the brush was able to put the sand deeper into the canopy and below the mowing range, saving the edges of bedknives and reels. He bought the brush on the spot. I ended up selling 5 more brushes on that trip through AL - with persistence in marketing this tool and the diligence of some GREAT distributors, the TB 200 is bound to be successful and a great addition to the maintenance equipment fleet. Not a lot we can do about the golf economy so sales will lag until the supts have more capital funds available - you cannot believe the number of supts that have told us this could be one of the best equipment investments they have ever made.
    By the way, did you receive the email that I sent you about the Sharpshooter sprayer technology from Capstan?
    Smithco has signed an agreement with them to be factory installing the system on Smithco sprayers. There are a lot of knockout demos being done recently!! I have been introducing the technology for the past 2 years in the upper midwest. You can mark my words...there will come a day when most turf spraying is done this way - it's evident by what has occured in ag over the last 12 or 13 years. This would happen faster if the supts had any $$$$ to spend!! see www.capstanag.com

    Jeff Scott, CGCS retired
    Midwest Turf Specialties,LLC
    630-688-5192



  20. Fleegel Timothy
    Fleegel Timothy avatar
    1/21/2012 4:01 PM
    Hey Jeff. I've only ever worked in cool season climates so I'm not familiar with any prep needed for painting greens. That being said, I responded the way I did because your response, to me, was just a sales pitch for the TB 200.

    Have I ever used a TB 200? No. Do I want to? Absolutely, I want to see what the fuss is about. Am I in a situation where I would be able to purchase one? Nope.



  21. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    1/21/2012 6:01 PM
    Jeff,

    I would agree that brushing to get rid of the dormant and non-growing tissue would be beneficial during the spring months. However, I don't see how REMOVING tissue would INCREASE paint coverage. I am in Florida at the peak of our golfing season with semi-dormant greens. I'm praying that I keep all of my tissue until we warm back up. We're not in the position to be regrowing turf right now, so as much as I can do to limit the wear and tear, the better off I would be. My opinion: brushing my non-overseeded greens right now would not be a good thing. Maybe in 6-8 weeks, yes. But now. No. And I don't see how that would improve the pigment or paint coverage. Like I said, paint doesn't color dirt.

    Yes, I did receive your email about the Capstan system. I think that is pretty cool. But, unless I am missing something, what am I gaining by having that system? Wouldn't the tri-nozzle setup and rate controller I have now do the same thing?



  22. Jeffrey Scott
    Jeffrey Scott avatar
    8 posts
    1/21/2012 8:01 PM
    Andy,
    Hey, great discussion we got started here! Thought provoking and really the purpose of having a FORUM, right? There are a lot of different ways to manage any particular situation that a superintendent is faced with and I was only offering an observation as an outsider that has a miniscule amount of experience at coloring greens. Over my 30 year career as a supt, I tried just about anything imagineable to produce the best product possible - I was not always successful, but I never ruled out giving something a try and I always considered those opportunities to be the really fun and exciting part of my job. I learned from a great mentor who is now retired and helping sell the TB 200 with our FL distributor - in fact, it was he who introduced me to the inventor of the original grooming brush in Anaheim. I learned early on that it is difficult, sometimes impossible to change someone's thinking - especially a seasoned golf course superintendent!!
    Regarding your questions about Sharpshooter - your questions are asked by almost 100% of supts that we introduce the technology to for the first time. There is no way I could fully explain the system in an email, so my suggestion would be to study the videos on the web site, then make a plan to visit the Smithco booth at the GIS and try to spend some time discussing it with Steve Willey or another of the Capstan reps that will be there. The Jacobsen distributors will all have demo units to show this year, but those reps have only been introduced to the technology since last summer. (I'm not sure I have ever met anyone who knows more about a sprayer or spraying systems than Steve Willey and have told him that he should go on the speaking circuit) There have been a number of successful demos in south FL in the past month as well as at a prominent club in central GA. The word will spread very quickly and the only thing holding back an explosion of interest is, again, the lack of capital funding available. I have the systems on 7 sprayers in the midwest now - we have been targeting the multiple course operations that will benefit most by the speed and accuracy advantages. The ROI will usually be within the first year of using the system, and that is on golf courses that only spray for about 7 months of the year - not many items you buy for turf management can say that!! There just is no downside to this investment. My enthusiasm gets the best of me though, this will be another item that is really a tough sell to a seasoned superintendent that is just trying to keep his job, and I am the industry "poster child" of that side of the profession!!!!

    Hope to see you at the GIS!
    Jeff Scott



  23. Jeffrey Scott
    Jeffrey Scott avatar
    8 posts
    1/22/2012 4:01 AM
    Andy - and all other viewers,
    I apologize for having strayed off the original subject of painting greens here - to get back to that, I would be very hesitant to use the Sharpshooter system to paint greens based on some of the earlier comments about blowing seals out of the pump because of the consistency of the solution going through the system - that could be a problem going through the Wilger nozzles as well. We had similar cautions at one of the Chicago clubs that installed the system last winter. The asst supt/spray operator had experienced plugging issues with the 5700 Toro sprayer prior to when we installed the system last winter. Part of the installation process is installing an additional Spray Systems in-line filter. We are also able to remove the 3 boom control solenoid valves because we take the pressure all the way to the tip with the Sharpshooter unit - the Sharpshooter is a pulse generator that is sending an electric pulse to the solenoid on the tip at about 20 times per second. It is because of this pulse, Andy, that your tri-nozzle setup would not work with this system. The Sharpshooter WOULD work with your Raven 440 rate controller - and that, called Phase 1, will probably be how you see Smithco enter the market place. The sticker shock is about 50% of Phase 1 and 2 combined so it will be more readily accepted - and it's probably a good move so the supt doesn't get a "technology overload" by having to learn the new EPro rate controller at the same time. We have not experienced that "TO" in the Chicago area though, the operators have quickly picked up the operation of the system and are very comfortable with it.
    I was explaining the system to a long-time friend and fellow supt that is now a GM a couple weeks ago. As I explained the technology he replied "sounds like you are creating a smart sprayer!" to which I had to reply "that is it exactly!!!" And when we install the SmartSteer module like we have on our 5500 Toro demo unit, we are one step closer to having the ultimate in sprayer operation like the farmers have enjoyed for so many years already.

    Jeff Scott, CGCS retired
    Midwest Turf Specialties,LLC



  24. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    1/22/2012 2:01 PM
    Even this far south, I WOULDNT EVEN THINK of beating up our greens till say April and wouldnt do it after October 1st, really. The brush has its place, not doubt but NOT is preparing a surface for painting.
    Im udnder a differnt thgouth process though-If you keep your fertility low and sand, sand, sand, you wont have a lot of grain and need to brush. I can count on 1 hand how many times we brushed last season.



  25. Jeffrey Scott
    Jeffrey Scott avatar
    8 posts
    1/22/2012 8:01 PM
    Tony,
    I appreciate your insight. There are certainly dozens of successful strategies being used to manage grain out there! If yours works, I'm sure you would be reluctant to change it.
    I'm curious, what strategy do you use to manage organic matter? If it is mechanical removal with the Graden or core aerification, the TB 200 works great for backfilling the voids. Our distributor in the UK is the international rep for Graden equipment and has found the brush to be an excellent finishing tool after using the Graden. We would appreciate any "schooling" from the supts in FL to assist my brush distributor that is based in Naples. What we presumed was going to be a great market for brush sales has left us puzzled indeed.

    Jeff Scott, CGCS retired
    Midwest Turf Specialties,LLC



  26. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    1/23/2012 4:01 AM
    Jeff,
    We core aerify with 3/4" tines, and then hand brush kiln dried sand into the holes. Once completed, we graden the greens, blow off the thatch and sand again. I dont like the thought of putting a cart, topdresser, boom sprayer onthe greens after they have been aerified. Superintendents spead all the time and effort to NOT have rutting after aerification, so I certainly wouldnt think about putting a cart on the greens afterwards. Our salsco rollers have bushes attached to them and we will brush in several directions, rolling at the same time.



  27. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    1/23/2012 5:01 AM
    Following Tony's lead, we installed brushes on our Salsco rollers as well. We don't put anything, other than the roller, on the greens for about two weeks after we poke holes. Our program is to topdress, aerify with a Soil Reliever and the Core Collector, then brush/roll. The program worked wonderfully last year and allowed the greens to heal over in 7-10 days with absolutely no rutting.

    We constantly fought ruts after every aerification and just when we would get them smooth, we would poke holes again. The process we use now has turned our program and greens health around 100%.



  28. Jeffrey Scott
    Jeffrey Scott avatar
    8 posts
    1/23/2012 12:01 PM
    Thanks for that input guys! I'll occasionally encounter rutting problems in the midwest - definitely more of a problem where rounded and sub rounded sand particles make up the majority of the greensmix or topdressing program - very little stability in those cases and incredibly difficult to remedy!! Kiln dried silica sand was so easy to apply and was readily available around here, but it sure caused problems after years of use.

    Jeff Scott, CGCS retired
    Midwest Turf Specialties,LLC



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