Venting and Curious Cancel The title field is required!

1. Joey Franco

   

   0 posts
   
   2/24/2014 5:02 AM

   My current golf course converted from bent to bermuda in 2009. The greens (not all of them) were lost in the winter from 2009-2010. I began employment in 2011. So I wasn't here when the greens were planted. When I first got here I noticed some irregular stands of turfgrass in the putting surfaces. Last year we made an attempt to remove these stands. We removed roughly 16,000sqft. through hexplugging and sod. These stands are on every single green. Not around just the edges but throughout the putting surface.
   
   [u">Questions[/u">
   
   1. What is the cause mutation or contamination?
   
   2. What are you guys doing to remove these UNWANTED stands?
   
   3. How old are your greens when you first saw these stands?
   
   4.How many golf course do you know that have these stands?
   
   The reason I ask these questions is because my membership believes we are the only golf course with this issue. I know of several that have this contamination/mutation, but want to get a better idea of what others are experiencing. I am uploading some photos to give you an idea of what I am talking about. Any help would be appreciated. THANKS![attachment=2">#15 9-24-13.jpg[/attachment">

   
   
   
   
2. Keith Lamb

   

   3 posts
   
   2/24/2014 6:02 AM

   Let me guess.....Champion bermuda?...right? Ours were done in 2004 on a no-till no fumigation conversion. Started seeing what you are seeing the next year and was told by Morris Brown to not worry about it that Champion would take it over. BS. They call it "yellow dog," I call it mutated tifdwarf. We tried removing and plugging but contamination was too widespread for us to keep up with it. We just try to manage it now with frequent and aggressive verticutting and topdressing. It has been manageable....barely. We have just learned to make the best of it since we have neither the money or resources to do anything else. We have gone back to lightly overseeding our greens for the winter. Champion has washed their hands of this problem and has taken no responsibility or blame for this. Hopefully methyl bromide will still be available when we can afford to redo our greens with...not Champion. Go to their website course list http://www.championturffarms.com/champion/course-list/ and start contacting other courses, especially the ones with older conversions and you will get a idea of the scope of the problem.
   
   Good luck.

   
   
   
   
3. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   2/24/2014 6:02 AM

   Welcome to my world.
   
   Steve

   
   
   
   
4. Andy Scott

   

   0 posts
   
   2/24/2014 7:02 AM

   You are not alone Joey.

   
   
   
   
5. Simon Parkin

   

   0 posts
   
   2/24/2014 10:02 AM

   Joey, as you know there are alot of guys on the Gulf Coast with Champion Greens. I do not know of anyone who has pure greens, everyone is in the same boat as you and are fighting with various "off types".
   Let your membership know that you are definately no the only Club that is dealing with this issue!
   
   Cheers.

   
   
   
   
6. Joey Franco

   

   0 posts
   
   2/24/2014 3:02 PM

   Gentlemen,
   
   I definitely appreciate the responses. We took the approach of spraying Round-up on these areas and then replaced the "off-types" the next week with sod or hexplugging. My nursery green is an estimated 4,000 sqft. We regrassed this area 3 times last year. That should put this into perspective. The problem really isn't during the growing season (although that is the perfect time for the growth for the "off-types"). The main issue is during the non-growing season. We don't overseed and in my area there is little to no mowing during the winter. This stuff is aggresive and hardly ever goes dormant. Last year was a really difficult year in keeping green speeds up and trying to grow-in 17,000 sqft of plugs. The areas are so sporadic. Its not like closing a section of a green for repair or growth. I just wanted to vent and if there are more guys with information, please let me know.
   Good Luck to everyone! Andy, stay out of trouble!

   
   
   
   
7. Smith Kerry L

   
   2/24/2014 3:02 PM

   If your cup changers are not trained to look for the off types they will unintentionally spread it throughout the entire green. Practically impossible to stop but maybe you could minimize the spread will some training.

   
   
   
   
8. Steven Huffstutler

   

   11 posts
   
   2/24/2014 5:02 PM

   The off types that you are experiencing (if they are anything like mine) are much more competitive than the Champion is. If you carefully pull out a sample of "yellow dog" it has an incredible root system. Your chances of beating this stuff are next to nothing. we don't handle them any differently than the rest of the green, but they grow much more rapidly than the desired grass and during periods of extended cloudiness and rain, they will go south in a hurry.
   I have given upon trying to remove them because every time you aerify, verticut or change a cup, you move them around. I try to use fungicides judiciously during times when these patches will head south and I'm anxiously awaiting a greens rebuild that I may not live to see.
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   
   
9. Keith Lamb

   

   3 posts
   
   2/24/2014 5:02 PM

   Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said: ........ and I'm anxiously awaiting a greens rebuild that I may not live to see.
   
   Regards,
   
   Steve

   
   
   
   But what a shop to wait in!!!

   
   
   
   
10. Justin Murray

    

    0 posts
    
    2/25/2014 8:02 AM

    We have Tif-eagle and have been experiencing similar problems. This past fall we removed about 1,100 sq ft of dwarf/328 grass from our greens and replaced with clean sod from our nursery. The spots were a purple/reddish in color. This showed up about 5-6 years ago and began getting worse over the past 3 years. The greens were regressed in 2002, removed 6"-8" greens mix, installed drainage, installed new greens mix and fumigated with Methyl Bromide. Their are some other contaminates that have shown up in the greens, but are not causing any problems yet. Our plan is to redo greens in 2-3 years.

    
    
    
    
11. Andy Jorgensen

    

    1 posts
    
    2/25/2014 9:02 AM

    Keep in mind it is not always the grass that is to blame. I've seen really pure and great Champion that was installed in 2006 and is still pure to this day. A lot of the blame for off-types and contamination can be traced back to either poor prep/install of the turf and/or lack of quality control at the farm. Often, to save a buck, clubs will bid out their grass and get "TifDwarf" from a lower quality farm when in reality it's not the same "TifDwarf" you would get from a farm with a better reputation.

    
    
    
    
12. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    2/25/2014 1:02 PM

    It's also possible that what you're seeing is 419. It's very easy to move the grass from the collar into the green with verticutting and aerification and the subsequest blowing and brushing that occurs.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
13. Joey Franco

    

    0 posts
    
    2/25/2014 2:02 PM

    Steve,
    
    It isn't 419. I will go ahead and say it = "YELLOW DOG". I hate the stuff. I know what it is, where it came from and how it got here. I was really curious to see how many other people have it and what they are doing to remove it. I understand some people don't have the "Yellow Dog". So my question is = How come some people do and some people don't? That is what I don't understand. I know of people that fumigated and still got the stuff. How can a grass mutate in less than a year or was it with the sprigs?

    
    
    
    
14. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    2/26/2014 4:02 PM

    It didn't mutate. It came on the sprigs.