Irrigation Renovation Cancel The title field is required!

1. Garrett Schultz

   

   0 posts
   
   10/9/2012 10:10 AM

   If you were given the opportunity (based on need) to do a complete renovation and redesign of your irrigation system, what are some options you would definitely use, or add to your current system??
   
   Input on decoder style systems, especially the Rainbird IC vs the traditional field satellite setup? What are your experiences with troubleshooting and maintenance on the decoders as opposed to satellites?
   
   PVC vs. HDPE? What are your experiences with maintenance issues on the HDPE pipe? Now that there are more fittings readily available is repair less of a headache?
   
   What are your experiences with disruption to play and keeping the course open/playable during construction?
   
   Any general advice on irrigation renovation?
   
   Background on my situation: 18 hole municipal course, sand based greens, generally clay soils, have had issues with groundwater levels and shifting soils (why I'm researching the HDPE). Currently we have no functioning isolation valves other than around greens, so separation of holes and areas will be key in the design. The course is pretty tight and compacted on the property, so turf reduction isn't much of a possibility as most areas of the property are in play. The pumps are in good condition and will be reused, but a new panel is in store.
   
   Thank you in advance for any help/suggestions!

   
   
   
   
2. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   10/9/2012 2:10 PM

   Garrett, had to good fortune to have a grow-in and a new irrigation system at an existing course. Both were Rain Bird decoder systems, one used six packs for around the greens and we installed both full and part circle heads, and both were installed differently. Troubleshooting decoders were real simple. As I keep learning on my current system with 2-wire control and satellites with 1230 clocks, trouble shooting with those are not that bad either once I have learned the wire path and how to trouble shoot.
   
   Depending on how they run your main line and laterals, I would definitely have isolation valves for greens and then isolate your fairways and tees if possible. At both the grow-in and renovation they would isolate the fairway and tees on the same loop. Greens were separate.
   
   On the renovation we did stay open for play, the only bad thing was they would cut through the current pipe, but they had run some main lines that late fall and over the winter, (this was northern Indiana) and then picked it back up in the spring. We were very lucky to have timely rains during the installation that didn't require them to go back and patch the old lines to give us water during the installation. We even hosted the Girls State Jr. match-play for 5 days right before the system was fired up. Pipe and wires were pulled in.
   
   The decoders allowed I think for quicker installation in our situation. The satellites do allow for some piece of mind if you were to lose your central controller.
   
   I would encourage them to install both part and full circle heads around green complexes. We had them at the grown in course but not the renovation, although with the decoder set up with the two-wire going to all the green heads, we could go back in later and install the part circles real easy.
   
   Just what I have dealt with good luck!
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
3. Keith Pegg

   

   0 posts
   
   10/9/2012 8:10 PM

   Garrett Schultz said: If you were given the opportunity (based on need) to do a complete renovation and redesign of your irrigation system, what are some options you would definitely use, or add to your current system??
   
   Input on decoder style systems, especially the Rainbird IC vs the traditional field satellite setup? What are your experiences with troubleshooting and maintenance on the decoders as opposed to satellites?
   
   PVC vs. HDPE? What are your experiences with maintenance issues on the HDPE pipe? Now that there are more fittings readily available is repair less of a headache?
   
   What are your experiences with disruption to play and keeping the course open/playable during construction?
   
   Any general advice on irrigation renovation?
   
   Background on my situation: 18 hole municipal course, sand based greens, generally clay soils, have had issues with groundwater levels and shifting soils (why I'm researching the HDPE). Currently we have no functioning isolation valves other than around greens, so separation of holes and areas will be key in the design. The course is pretty tight and compacted on the property, so turf reduction isn't much of a possibility as most areas of the property are in play. The pumps are in good condition and will be reused, but a new panel is in store.
   
   Thank you in advance for any help/suggestions!

   
   
   HDPE or PVC ? no good answer, I have done both in new builds and both work great. The weak link will be PVC tees and elbows' and swing joint parts.
   1. Use gate valves that great and not cheap ones the contractor will try to use.
   2. Do as-built plans as you go and you cannot take to many photos.
   3. If you are triangle spacing (I hope) keep the spacing true with-in inches.
   4. Use a good designer and follow his plans.
   5. Be consistent if swing joints or on the right side of the water lines keep it that way.
   6. Quick couplers same distant from irrigation heads always. Two or three per green and never on the front side / side and back , I like them 12 inch's outside the irrigation heads if possible. If you need a QC in the rough put in a head. Then you always have a QC if needed.
   7. Two gate vales per green so you always have some water left or right.
   8. Isolation Valves on every fairway.
   9. Main line in the rough only.
   10. Thrust blocks a must.
   11. Blow off valves in low areas.
   12. Air release (auto) valves a must on high areas.
   13. I like hard wire to each valve in head, decoder systems many have problems.
   14. Lighting protection a must for everything.
   15. Radio control is okay. Risk getting people wet sometimes is all.
   16. If you connect to internet, do not use that computer to surf web. My have always been free stand no net at all.
   17. Toro or RainBird both good.
   18. Double heads in and out at greens a great idea. Adjustment very important. Easy to over water.
   19. VFD drive a must at the pump station.
   20. Make sure you have a good clean water source with a good pH.
   21. Tamp ditches before sod or you will have lines show in time.
   22. Run one spare wire (colored) in each ditch you may need it later.
   23. No wire splices between valves or heads. Use a great wire spice!
   I am sure many things can be added to this.
   
   Keith
   Zama Japan

   
   
   
   
4. Jackson Reiswig

   

   0 posts
   
   10/10/2012 7:10 AM

   ISO valves for Greens/Collars - Tee Complexes - Fwys/Roughs. Seems like overkill, but for what it takes to install those options compared with the ability to still get water to areas in play during repairs is invaluable. Just 2 weeks ago I had two major blowouts on two different holes, pretty much right at 12 hours apart - one on a fwy loop, the other on a tee complex. Just valved down the necessary areas and was easily able to run a hose and a rollerbase to areas I needed to water as we made our repairs. And keep the surround heads on the fwy loop while the greens/collar stations stay on a separate loop. Probably a lot of opinions on what company has the best systems, but the absolute most important factor is your core design. RainBird/Toro/Hunter are all limited to what the piping can deliver.

   
   
   
   
5. Garrett Schultz

   

   0 posts
   
   10/10/2012 8:10 AM

   Thanks for the advice/suggestions! I have a designer I'm quite confident in, and am obviously utilizing his expertise. A major concern I have is convincing members/customers that the course will still be playable during construction. Communication and getting the word out before construction is key, but that only goes so far. The irrigation system at the smaller 9 hole course our park board owns was renovated 8 years ago (before my time) and revenue loss was pretty severe, from what I understand was due to word of mouth that the course was closed (it wasn't). I will definitely be proactive this go round.

   
   
   
   
6. Ronald Conard

   

   4 posts
   
   10/10/2012 8:10 AM

   I've used Rainbird for years but sad to say, they have dropped the service ball over the past 5 years. They seem to have adopted the concept of "planned obsolescence". For example you can no longer get basic parts for heads bought as recently as 5 years ago (i.e. nozzles for 51dr's).
   
   The answer I get as to "why?" has been there is not enough demand which is a horse .... answer considering the initial cost of putting in a system. If you can't service the product you spent close to a million installing because there is "no demand" for parts five years later, then why put that product in the ground in the first place?
   
   So I would really grill the supplier on the long term ability to service the equipment they are selling you. Even then you might not get a straight answer.
   
   On another note Keith's list is great.
   
   Regarding water quality make sure you really delve into this as it is much more complex than it appears. High pH water can actually be very good depending on a whole array of other factors you might be facing. The pH may be high due to Ca and Mg which might be actually beneficial when dealing with soils/water with high Na levels.

   
   
   
   
7. Niemier Rick A

   
   10/10/2012 9:10 AM

   Garrett Schultz said: Thanks for the advice/suggestions! I have a designer I'm quite confident in, and am obviously utilizing his expertise. A major concern I have is convincing members/customers that the course will still be playable during construction. Communication and getting the word out before construction is key, but that only goes so far. The irrigation system at the smaller 9 hole course our park board owns was renovated 8 years ago (before my time) and revenue loss was pretty severe, from what I understand was due to word of mouth that the course was closed (it wasn't). I will definitely be proactive this go round.

   
   
   
   
   Garrett,
   
   As important as the designer is, the installer is just as important. I went thru a major irrigation install many years ago. The installer agreed that the existing system had to be kept working every night and work would only be on one or maybe two holes at a time. I never believed it could be done but they did. Communication with the installer, getting things in writing so they know you mean what you say. ISO valves, pictures (lots of both) and a accurate as built map are a must. As much supervision as you can spare, checking their work and watching them to make sure they do as promised. They can hide stuff pretty quick if you don't keep an eye on them.

   
   
   
   
8. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   10/10/2012 11:10 AM

   Rick Niemier said:

   Garrett Schultz said: Thanks for the advice/suggestions! I have a designer I'm quite confident in, and am obviously utilizing his expertise. A major concern I have is convincing members/customers that the course will still be playable during construction. Communication and getting the word out before construction is key, but that only goes so far. The irrigation system at the smaller 9 hole course our park board owns was renovated 8 years ago (before my time) and revenue loss was pretty severe, from what I understand was due to word of mouth that the course was closed (it wasn't). I will definitely be proactive this go round.

   
   
   
   
   Garrett,
   
   As important as the designer is, the installer is just as important. I went thru a major irrigation install many years ago. The installer agreed that the existing system had to be kept working every night and work would only be on one or maybe two holes at a time. I never believed it could be done but they did. Communication with the installer, getting things in writing so they know you mean what you say. ISO valves, pictures (lots of both) and a accurate as built map are a must. As much supervision as you can spare, checking their work and watching them to make sure they do as promised. They can hide stuff pretty quick if you don't keep an eye on them.

   
   
   I agree with Rick on the installer, had the same designer at two different courses but the installations were totally different.
   
   I have had issues with the 51 nozzles as well, ours were installed in 1993, didn't know they were still installing them as late as Ron's system. Everything else that I have dealt with Rain Bird is good. We still operate off old electro-mechanical clocks (SBM 1230's) using our current central. I remember in NJ we had VT'4 clocks installed at 3 of our courses and by the time they did the fourth course they had changed over to the ltc 8000' (this would have been back in the early to mid 90's)
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
9. Robert Crockett

   

   4 posts
   
   10/10/2012 4:10 PM

   Whether it's a total or partial renovation, if at all possible GPS every appurtenance possible and include that info on your AS BUILT plan. Then you always have an exact location No matter who is operating the course in the future.

   
   
   
   
10. Tom Forsythe

    

    0 posts
    
    10/10/2012 10:10 PM

    Garrett:
    
    I inherited a new system 10 years ago that used HDPE pipe during the install. For northern climates that experience lots of shifting soils and frost heaves I don't think you can beat it. The only repairs we have had to make to the system in ten years were mechanical damage ( a backhoe hitting the pipe) during renovation projects. The repairs are so infrequent that we didn't even buy the fusion weld system to do repairs. We have a local contractor that has one and if we ever need it we just get them in to do the repairs. We installed HDPE pipe on a second course four years ago and have similar results with the pipe.

    
    
    
    
11. Garrett Schultz

    

    0 posts
    
    10/11/2012 7:10 AM

    Thanks again for all the advice! I see the downfalls of a poor installer each and every day, and this will not happen this time! A large portion of the current problems that are creating the necessity of a new system are due to very poor installation. No as-built, non-functioning iso valves, "home-made" swing joints, no slack in the wires, no inconsistency in pipe depth, wires don't run with the pipe, weak joints now coming apart, and trust me the list goes on and on. We well be placing minimum experience/qualification clauses in the bid.
    
    
    
    

    Tom Forsythe said: Garrett:
    
    I inherited a new system 10 years ago that used HDPE pipe during the install. For northern climates that experience lots of shifting soils and frost heaves I don't think you can beat it. The only repairs we have had to make to the system in ten years were mechanical damage ( a backhoe hitting the pipe) during renovation projects. The repairs are so infrequent that we didn't even buy the fusion weld system to do repairs. We have a local contractor that has one and if we ever need it we just get them in to do the repairs. We installed HDPE pipe on a second course four years ago and have similar results with the pipe.

    
    
    I'm really glad to hear this about HDPE. Nobody in our area has installed it, so I didn't have a first hand experience to learn from. The preliminary design had PVC mainline and HDPE laterals, so we hopefully won't have the need for a fusion system. Of course this is all dependent on bids coming in within budget, but I am optimistic and getting my ducks in a row