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skipping necessary cultivation practices

16 posts
  1. Jennings Dustin T
    Jennings Dustin T avatar
    7/22/2013 11:07 AM
    One of the biggest problems with my place of work is being extremely short staffed. It seems I can never get ahead of the game even on some of the most basic and necessary maintenance tasks. It is recommend that I verticut my greens as often as possible, about every 2 weeks and a light top dressing to go with it. So far this summer I have only had the staff to verticut once. So I've been thinking of alternatives. I groom my greens everyday, and it wouldn't take a lot of time at all to take a wrench and lower those things down several clicks to the point where they are really digging into the turf much like the verticutting units. Is there anything wrong with that? I wanted to ask before I tried it.



  2. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/22/2013 11:07 AM
    Greens are everything in golf. Figure out some way to move them up on your priority list and verticut. The spacing is too tight on groomers to accomplish the same thing, imo.



  3. Timothy Walker
    Timothy Walker avatar
    0 posts
    7/22/2013 5:07 PM
    I think you will gain more by keeping to a strict top dressing regimen even if you have to pull back on the opportunities to verticut...you will be diluting organic which is far better than nothing at all.

    I am in the same bot - hoping to verticut Wednesday with a light top dress app. I hear my mechanic crying right now as I write this...he thinks sand is from the devil...



  4. Schott Matthew
    Schott Matthew avatar
    7/22/2013 7:07 PM
    I was an equipment tech for some time and as you increase the depth of those groomers, they are more prone to breaking shafts. Just verticut...greens are the most important thing out there.



  5. Jennings Dustin T
    Jennings Dustin T avatar
    7/23/2013 5:07 AM
    good advice, thanks guys



  6. Ashton Alan W
    Ashton Alan W avatar
    7/23/2013 9:07 AM
    Dustin,

    I guess I'll be the contrarian...

    I have been grooming my Miniverde for about 8 years now with groomers set to .020 off of the deck. That's a tenth of an inch below the height of cut. I'm not saying it's a replacement for verticutting (depth, spacing, etc.)... but I will say that we don't have to verticut nearly as much in order to keep thatch levels under control. You should play with it...



  7. Jennings Dustin T
    Jennings Dustin T avatar
    7/23/2013 10:07 AM
    Alan Ashton said: Dustin,

    I guess I'll be the contrarian...

    I have been grooming my Miniverde for about 8 years now with groomers set to .020 off of the deck. That's a tenth of an inch below the height of cut. I'm not saying it's a replacement for verticutting (depth, spacing, etc.)... but I will say that we don't have to verticut nearly as much in order to keep thatch levels under control. You should play with it...


    that's what I'm trying to accomplish. I have a full time staff of 2 including myself, and 2 part time guys who put in 30 hrs a week combined. Needless to say there isn't much time for everything I want to do. I could verticut more often, but then my rough and fairways would be 4 inches high. with a crew of 2, aerating/topdressing is a nightmare.



  8. Canedo Alberto J
    Canedo Alberto J avatar
    7/23/2013 11:07 AM
    Verticle mowing and topdressing are very important. I have a staff of 3 and myself. I do the verti-cutting on Tuesday on an every other week basis. I show up about an hour before my 2 workers are scheduled to be here. My mechanic changes cups and then starts to topdress the greens with the lely spreader after we double mow the greens. Once I'm done verticle mowing, I will prepare my fertilizers and spray after the topdressing and water it in for about 9 minutes. It is a lot of work, but we get the job done in between play. I will never go without verticle mowing greens on an every other week basis.



  9. Ashton Alan W
    Ashton Alan W avatar
    7/24/2013 10:07 AM
    Dustin T Jennings said:
    Alan Ashton said: Dustin,

    I guess I'll be the contrarian...

    I have been grooming my Miniverde for about 8 years now with groomers set to .020 off of the deck. That's a tenth of an inch below the height of cut. I'm not saying it's a replacement for verticutting (depth, spacing, etc.)... but I will say that we don't have to verticut nearly as much in order to keep thatch levels under control. You should play with it...


    that's what I'm trying to accomplish. I have a full time staff of 2 including myself, and 2 part time guys who put in 30 hrs a week combined. Needless to say there isn't much time for everything I want to do. I could verticut more often, but then my rough and fairways would be 4 inches high. with a crew of 2, aerating/topdressing is a nightmare.


    I'm in about the same boat as you... that's what makes it difficult when they pick a Ferrari turf on a Yugo budget! Makes you try different things to make up for lack of staff and budget...



  10. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    7/24/2013 11:07 AM
    Alan Ashton said: I'm in about the same boat as you... that's what makes it difficult when they pick a Ferrari turf on a Yugo budget! Makes you try different things to make up for lack of staff and budget...


    How many careers have been disrupted or destroyed because owners did not want to listen to the "so-called experts"? You can't freaking grow championship caliber bentgrass in South Florida in August. Thank you PGA National for proving that to my boss in the 80's!



  11. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    7/24/2013 12:07 PM
    Dustin,

    Where are you at? What grass are you growing? You are getting advice from all over the board.

    You can't treat bent like bermuda.

    I never, ever verticut my bent / Poa greens. Why? What good does it do long term? I suppose it may be necessary with the newer, tighter bents but for my greens there is no reason whatsoever to verticut.

    Do you see why we need to know your situation?

    I brush as often as possible with brushes mounted on our greens mowers. If you are growing the older bents, why would you want to mangle the very mechanism that gives it an advantage over Poa?



  12. Jennings Dustin T
    Jennings Dustin T avatar
    7/24/2013 2:07 PM
    Ronald Conard, CGCS said: Dustin,

    Where are you at? What grass are you growing? You are getting advice from all over the board.

    You can't treat bent like bermuda.

    I never, ever verticut my bent / Poa greens. Why? What good does it do long term? I suppose it may be necessary with the newer, tighter bents but for my greens there is no reason whatsoever to verticut.

    Do you see why we need to know your situation?

    I brush as often as possible with brushes mounted on our greens mowers. If you are growing the older bents, why would you want to mangle the very mechanism that gives it an advantage over Poa?



    diamond zoysia, i guess that was a key descriptive item i left out.



  13. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/24/2013 2:07 PM
    Ronald Conard, CGCS said: Dustin,

    Where are you at? What grass are you growing? You are getting advice from all over the board.

    You can't treat bent like bermuda.

    I never, ever verticut my bent / Poa greens. Why? What good does it do long term? I suppose it may be necessary with the newer, tighter bents but for my greens there is no reason whatsoever to verticut.

    Do you see why we need to know your situation?

    I brush as often as possible with brushes mounted on our greens mowers. If you are growing the older bents, why would you want to mangle the very mechanism that gives it an advantage over Poa?


    Ron,
    What bent do you have in your greens? Of course you are up in Wy. so the growing season would be shorter then here in the transisiton zone. We have found on our Penncross, (we do have some dominent mixed in) that if we don't verticut, the grass blades seem to get fat and happy and it affects our putting. We really noticed it this spring when we were wet and cold, (could be part of the issue too?) in April they seemed fat and happy, (others in my area said the same.) When we started verticutting in May, they seemed to thin out some, grass blades seemed thinner, and we actual received compliments on conditions near the end of May. Only change in our program from last spring was verticutting and topdressing, (along with cooler and wetter weather).

    Interesting topic for discussion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  14. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    7/24/2013 3:07 PM
    Dustin T Jennings said:
    Ronald Conard, CGCS said: Dustin,

    Where are you at? What grass are you growing? You are getting advice from all over the board.

    You can't treat bent like bermuda.

    I never, ever verticut my bent / Poa greens. Why? What good does it do long term? I suppose it may be necessary with the newer, tighter bents but for my greens there is no reason whatsoever to verticut.

    Do you see why we need to know your situation?

    I brush as often as possible with brushes mounted on our greens mowers. If you are growing the older bents, why would you want to mangle the very mechanism that gives it an advantage over Poa?



    diamond zoysia, i guess that was a key descriptive item i left out.


    Ok, forget everything I wrote.



  15. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    7/24/2013 3:07 PM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:
    Ronald Conard, CGCS said: Dustin,

    Where are you at? What grass are you growing? You are getting advice from all over the board.

    You can't treat bent like bermuda.

    I never, ever verticut my bent / Poa greens. Why? What good does it do long term? I suppose it may be necessary with the newer, tighter bents but for my greens there is no reason whatsoever to verticut.

    Do you see why we need to know your situation?

    I brush as often as possible with brushes mounted on our greens mowers. If you are growing the older bents, why would you want to mangle the very mechanism that gives it an advantage over Poa?


    Ron,
    What bent do you have in your greens? Of course you are up in Wy. so the growing season would be shorter then here in the transisiton zone. We have found on our Penncross, (we do have some dominent mixed in) that if we don't verticut, the grass blades seem to get fat and happy and it affects our putting. We really noticed it this spring when we were wet and cold, (could be part of the issue too?) in April they seemed fat and happy, (others in my area said the same.) When we started verticutting in May, they seemed to thin out some, grass blades seemed thinner, and we actual received compliments on conditions near the end of May. Only change in our program from last spring was verticutting and topdressing, (along with cooler and wetter weather).

    Interesting topic for discussion.

    Mel


    Mel,

    I have everything under the sun including Penncross. It does lays flat but I'm fine with that as I don't see it effecting roll. But you are right our climates are entirely different.

    Through a combination of dry, dry conditions, brushing, rolling, solid greens mower rollers, and light frequent topdressing we are able to keep the bent from getting puffy. In fact, walking on them in the prime season they feel like pool tables.

    In the past we verticut and as I transitioned away from the practice, I always thought that at some point I would need to do some. But after a few years I realized there was no purpose for it in our situation. We do brush extensively. Sometimes we double brush and double cut in the same position. It takes a few weeks for the brushing to do what one verticuting will do in the spring but after that point the smoothness is the same if not better.

    I've been testing the o.m. accumulation in the profile and over the past two season it has dropped from a decent level to an even better level. But once again, in the summer, I have much more control over our climate than you do. I can always add water.



  16. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    7/24/2013 3:07 PM
    Thanks Ron,

    Brushing is one thing I would like to incorprate, just haven't found the rescources and time to make any changes.

    We haven't gone to solid rollers yet either, I've thought about that in the summer, but we set our mower (Toro 3150) at .156 and then when it's over 90 we will mow one day roll with a triplex roller unit the next. We do continue to try and topdress during the summer, only when the heat is oppresive will we skip, but we try not to since with holidays and equipment sharing, if we miss our turn, it could be 4 weeks between topdressings.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

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