Acid injection Cancel The title field is required!

1. Douglas Eggert

   

   1 posts
   
   4/25/2013 4:04 PM

   I'm seriously after 17 seasons looking to get an irrigation water treatment unit at my facility. I have a lake that outfalls off the course, so the my availability of water is not a problem. Acid injection is my best choice based on my particulars.
   
   My biggest problem is selling this to my Director. So I'm asking does anyone have any notes, written reports, or presentations I could "borrow" it help with my sales pitch. I do have tests from 1998 to 2011, and the water does need to be treated. Please email them or comments to my personal email at mowerdouge@hotmail.com.
   
   Also does anyone have information to quantify the cost savings of chemicals and fertilizer by treating water?
   
   Thanks.

   
   
   
   
2. Larry Stowell

   

   0 posts
   
   4/26/2013 1:04 AM

   What are the water factors that are leading you toward acid injection? Can you post a water report?
   
   Dr. John Kaminski is leading a Google+ Hangout on bicarbonate next Tuesday at 11:00 am EST and your water might be a good one to discuss. I will be one of the designated presenters so we can discuss your water if you are interested.

   
   
   
   
3. Douglas Eggert

   

   1 posts
   
   4/26/2013 7:04 AM

   I'm attaching a spreadsheet I made up sometime last season.
   
   And I flood, so water quality drastically changes for a few weeks after each event.
   
   Also, I had a very difficult fairway fail in 2011/2012, and had re-establishment issues, until it rained each time. Which Dr. Settle of the CDGA at that time, concured that there probably was an irrigation water issue. Since then that 1.2 acre fairway is treated as a large green, topdressed monthly, additional Ca....

   
   
   
   
4. Larry Stowell

   

   0 posts
   
   4/26/2013 10:04 AM

   Any chance you have a few soil reports to go along with the water reports. Let me run your water data through a couple of additional simple models I use and I will post the results back here. I think your soil data will fill in gaps.
   
   You mentioned topdressing, I assume that the soil is not well draining. I will take a look athe NRCS soil maps for your course to see if you have a soil problem that makes any water, short of a perfect water, difficult to manage. Acid injection might improve the water, but the soil may be so restrictibe that even an improved water will not get the job done - just more topdressing aeration and drainage to move water away from the rootzone.
   
   I'll get back in a day or two - I'm tied up for most of today.

   
   
   
   
5. Michael Rogers

   

   2 posts
   
   4/28/2013 7:04 AM

   Douglas,
   
   I do not see any justification for acid injection. The highest pH has the lowest amount of bicarbonates??? The other pH´s are only slightly above 7. There is no sodium issue whatsoever.
   
   The most likely scenario is that the bad fairway is your worst draining and it has been choked up with magnesium carbonate over the years.
   
   The calcium and magnesium are equal on milliequivalent basis around 3 to 4 meq and this will slow your percolation rate over the years.
   
   Have you whacked the bad area with gypsum to displace some of the magnesium.
   
   This is the acid needed for the 8,14 pH to drop to pH of 7
   
   1580,00 0,75 Pacid 75% 50,64 ml / cu m
   pH 8,14 N acid 54% 71,00 ml / cu m
   desired pH 7,00 S acid 46% 67,00 ml / cu m
   meq acid 0,81 S acid 96% 23,00 ml / cu m[/b]
   7.1 gallons per acre foot of 46% S acid
   In Illinois I estimated 80 acre feet for average 18 hole golf course means you need about 22,000 pounds of 46% S acid. pHairway would cost about 12 grand , generic sulfuric acid maybe a third of that plus the cost of equipment.
   
   I don´t think that acid injection is your solution. I agree with Larry, some soil analyses should shed some light on the problem. I bet your bad area is jammed with Magnesium.
   
   Un saludo,
   
   Michael Rogers
   Down to EARTH Water Management

   
   
   
   
6. Larry Stowell

   

   0 posts
   
   4/28/2013 12:04 PM

   Douglas,
   
   I finally got a chance to look at your water reports and the NRCS soil web data. I have bad news.
   
   Your water contains a high level of bicarbonates, but there are other factors that result in the bicarbonates being less of a problem. If the residual sodium carbonate level was above 1.25, then acid injection would be a good choice to eliminate the bicarbonate to reduce risk of sodium accumulation in the soil. However, there is plenty of calcium and magnesium to prevent a sodium problem in the soil. I would speculate that sodium levels in your soils are low. I am sorry to say that I believe your problem is more fundamental and you will not be able to solve the water movement problem at Sanctuary Golf Course with any water amendment.
   
   Take a look at the NRCS soil report. Forty-six percent of the area is classified as hydric. In addition, the soil is classified as easily compacted and has high rutting hazard (vehicles will sink into the soil when wet). These models may be incorrect, but combined, they indicate that you were gifted with soils that are not that suitable for golf play that requires firm surfaces after irrigation or rainfall. Your steps to apply sand topdressing is the best way to correct the problem. However, you will have to install drainage in locations where the water moves through the surface sand layer laterally. I would recommend that you expand sand topdressing to sand cap the fairways and install drainage to move water away.
   
   I took a look at some Yelp reviews and one comment indicated that the course was "...whenever it rains it's basically unplayable for a week." This is a problem with your soils, not the irrigation water or anything that you are doing from a management perspective. I strongly recommend that every golf course superintendent visit NRCS Soil Web Survey and download the soil maps for your location. They not be exactly correct due to grading, but they will provide some insights into the performance of soils at your location.
   
   http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/HomePage.htm
   
   i hope this information is helpful.

   
   
   
   
7. Larry Stowell

   

   0 posts
   
   4/28/2013 12:04 PM

   Additional NRCS Soil reports that could not be appended to previous post.

   
   
   
   
8. Bill Atkin

   

   0 posts
   
   4/28/2013 1:04 PM

   Douglas,
   
   The high bicarbonate component in your water causes free calcium and magnesium to form carbonates. The resulting carbonates form in the soil pores, they limit air and water movement and limit the ability of the mag or calcium to bond to the soil colloid to exchange with sodium.
   
   In order to eliminate alkalinity hydrogen must be available from acidification. The problem with sulfuric is the hazard to the delivery system, metals. At a ph of 6.5 you have removed less than half of the alkalinity, you are still accumulating the carbonates that are plugging your soils. In order to remove the carbonate/bicarbonate from the equation and liberate exchangeable cations you need additional hydrogen, sulfurous acid delivered from a generator through irrigation can provide the additional hydrogen required without putting the delivery system at risk.
   
   Bill Atkin CGCS

   
   
   
   
9. Michael Rogers

   

   2 posts
   
   4/28/2013 1:04 PM

   The RSC is -2.4 Acid will do nothing to help. Acid is not the end all solution as put forth by the sellers of acid and sulfur burners. Need to modify the soil in the bad areas.
   
   Ionic S ds = 0,0127
   Log I s = -1,8962
   Log2HCO3= -0,425968732
   Log ( X ) = 0,99
   Bridge1 = 2,957178158
   Bridge2= 2,957178158
   Ca x = 1,718383541
   Rna = 1,10
   
   SAR 0,95
   RSC -2,40
   SAR adj 2,12

   
   
   
   
10. Indorante Samuel J

    
    4/30/2013 3:04 PM

    Dr. Stowell, I am a soil scientist with the USDA-Natural Resources Conservation Service in Illinois and it was very nice to see the application of soil survey information to the problems of turf and natural resource management on golf courses. Web Soil Survey provides a wealth of natural resource information, and the information is available for almost all of the U.S. and it is easily accessible:
    
    http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/HomePage.htm
    
    Thanks for the plug.
    
    Samuel J. Indorante, Ph.D.
    Soil Scientist
    USDA-NRCS
    Carbondale, IL

    
    
    
    
11. Larry Stowell

    

    0 posts
    
    4/30/2013 10:04 PM

    The NRCS Web Soil Suevey was also designed into the GCSAA IPM Planning Guide. PACE Turf and the GCSAA strongly promote the value soil zone management and consider the NRCS service critical soil resource. Here is a link to the Management Zone Inventory from the Planning Guide that has the link to the Web Soil Survey.
    
    http://www.gcsaa.org/Environment/IPM-Pl ... ntory.aspx

    
    
    
    
12. Indorante Samuel J

    
    5/1/2013 4:05 AM

    Excellent!

    
    
    
    
13. Ronald Conard

    

    4 posts
    
    5/1/2013 10:05 AM

    Douglas,
    
    Any feedback? You received some excellent advice here. Water quality is complex and too many times we see high pH and jump to the conclusion that acid injection will fix the problem. In certain cases it's the basic cations that are needed or as in your case, drainage.
    
    So what are you going to do? You can't really convince your Director to go the acid injection route, wind up spending a lot of money, and then not fix the problem. How would that go over with your boss?
    
    If I were you I would take Dr. Stowell's advice and tackle what you can afford. Take one of your worst areas, install drainage, sand cap and demonstrate to the powers-that-be the effectiveness of this strategy. Hopefully, you have somewhere to actually drain the water. If you don't you may be pretty much screwed.
    
    Good luck and provide some two way feedback when you get the chance.

    
    
    
    
14. Douglas Eggert

    

    1 posts
    
    5/2/2013 8:05 AM

    Sorry, I haven't been an active participant of this discussion I started, I've had some issues arise that pulled me away from the course. I only caught the second half of the Turf Chat on Bicarbs with Dr. Stowell, I will be catching it on You Tube. I have had a few responses privately and on this forum. I do plan on doing some water tests monthly to establish if there is a seasonal fluctuations to my water quality. I also will be pulling soil samples from the most difficult fairways and putting surfaces.
    
    I did have a failure my #14 fairway a couple seasons ago, which is entirely on black loam in a flood plain. I had that tested then and the only problem was the Ca: Mg ration was not where I'd like it. Once I gutted the fairway for reseeding, it struggled. Only after some timely rains the fairway had better re-establishment with rainfall instead of irrigation.
    
    I only have a couple areas on the course that probably need additional drainage, which will be added. I did do 1500 lbs acre Ca last fall and will probably be doing an app of 2000 lbs acre gypsum this fall, all on soil based structure here. The putting surfaces are high calcareous sand with more fines than I'd like. I've been battling that issue for quite a few years now.
    
    As for water management, I'm pretty stingy with it, even though I used the most ever last season. My fairways are a heavier loam with clay pockets in due to course construction in 1995/1996, irrigation coverage is a lackluster block fairway system here.
    
    My focus will be towards an agronomic solution that involves least amount of inputs. This may eventually lead to a combination of soil amendments and/or water treatments of some sort.
    
    As for my choice of acid injection instead of sulfur burner, is my pond is the actual water table, which outfalls to the creek at the rate of 300K gallons per day. My ability to store treated water was the issue.
    
    I'd like to thank all the people who have commented publicly and privately.

    
    
    
    
15. Jeremy Hreben

    

    0 posts
    
    10/4/2015 7:10 AM

    Forgive me if this becomes winded. I have a tons of ideas floating around in this head of mine.
    
    First the facts: I irrigate with effluent water. it is a consistent pH of 6.5. sodium is 58ppm, and bicarbonates are 135ppm.
    
    My soil has a pH of greens 7.1 and fairways of 6.5.
    Greens are push up and other than the ones with XGD installed, do not drain at all.
    
    I have always noticed that after a rain event I get a huge flush of growth. I and others believe that this is attributed to the rain being a pH of 5(tested). Thus the acidic nature of rain releasing nutrients causing the growth.
    
    Do you think installing an acid injection system would benefit? Using a urea/sulfuric acid mixture of a pH lower than 1?
    
    I have also heard that the addition of sulfur products could add to black layer. I already do have black layer issues in certain areas on greens that hold water. We currently aerify these areas 5 - 6 times per year in addition to traditional core aerification.

    
    
    
    
16. Larry Stowell

    

    0 posts
    
    10/4/2015 11:10 AM

    Rainfall has a dramatic impact upon all soil chemical factors and the distribution uniformity is near perfect.
    
    There may be other factors in your water that influence soil chemical conditions. For example, high sodium can restrict growth. However, bicarbonate a at 135 ppm is not a problem. In addition to rainfall flushing the soil salts, a good rainfall will draw air into the soil stimulating root growth.
    
    Rainfall impact on soil sodium: https://www.paceturf.org/index.php/jour ... untry_club
    
    Bicarbonate a in irrigation water hangout video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=c4- ... Kbv5GaGdBM

    
    
    
    
17. Joshua Sawyer

    

    0 posts
    
    10/5/2015 2:10 PM

    I would recommend reaching out to a local extension or university specialist that knows water. Your bicarbonates could be binding up soil elements (Ca, P) and the rainfall is breaking the bonds, releasing the nutrients. If your soluble calcium is at the root of the problem, it is likely that it is affecting everything in your greens, including drainage. If your drainage is impeded, the very soluble S will build in soil testing...
    
    Can get complicated in a hurry--find someone who really knows what they are talking about.
    
    Good luck.

    
    
    
    
18. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    10/5/2015 8:10 PM

    Does anybody not get a flush of growth after rain? I don't think acid rain is required

    
    
    
    
19. Ronald Conard

    

    4 posts
    
    10/6/2015 10:10 AM

    No

    
    
    
    
20. Michael Rogers

    

    2 posts
    
    10/7/2015 6:10 AM

    Jeremy.
    
    Your sodium and bicarbonates are extremely low. Your pH´s are almost ideal. Nothing points to receiving benefit from acid injection.
    
    Natural rain events are great for turfgrass. I have had 1/5 of an inch these last 7 months and only 12 inches in 2 1/2 years. The 5th of an inch about 10 days ago came with a thunder storm that carries natural N and it really helped give the course a shot in the arm. So calculate, no rain for 6 1/2 months,ouch.
    
    We had a good rain after putting out urea everywhere in March and wow!
    
    We are in southern Spain looking at Gibraltar and Morocco.
    
    Un saludo Michael

    
    
    
    
21. Joshua Sawyer

    

    0 posts
    
    10/7/2015 6:10 AM

    Just a quick note, and I may be off base...
    
    I am not sure that you can make assumptions about the sodium and bicarb levels without knowing the TDS of the water. If these components make up a major part of the TDS, they may cause issues even if their numbers look relatively low. Good luck.

    
    
    
    
22. Michael Rogers

    

    2 posts
    
    10/7/2015 1:10 PM

    Joshua, Jeremy is in south Jersey. Do not think he is irrigating with snow melt like on the west side of the Rockies. I take that back, please see all the way below from Myrtle Beach. It would be helpful to see full analysis.
    
    Here is my water analysis. I made sure system was well flushed, rinsed 3 times bottle, filled to very very top and refrigerated waiting for courier to get to lab the same day.
    meq/lt ppm
    Sodium 2,09 48,07
    Potassium 0,07 2,73
    Calcium 5,39 108,02
    Magnesium 3,05 37,09
    Ammonia 0 0,00
    
    
    Chloride 2,56 90,88
    Sulfate 2,76 132,48
    Carbonate 0 0,00
    Bicarbonate 5,2 317,20
    Nitrate 0,03 1,86
    P 0 0,00
    
    pH 7,6
    Here is the Cation : Anion
    Total Cations 10,60
    Total Anions 10,55
    Cation : Anion 1,00
    A proper warer analysis has cations almost equal to anions in milliequivalents.
    
    Myrtle Beach quite similar to south Jersey. This has serious permeability issues at so low EC.
    meq/lt ppm
    Sodium 0,57 13,1
    Potassium 0,16 6,2
    Calcium 1,46 29,3
    Magnesium 0,22 2,7
    Ammonia 0 0,0
    
    
    Chloride 0,45 16,0
    Sulfate 0,75 36,0
    Carbonate 0 0,0
    Bicarbonate 1,52 92,7
    Nitrate 0 0,0
    Phosphate 0 0,0
    
    pH 7,33

    
    
    
    
23. Jeremy Hreben

    

    0 posts
    
    10/16/2015 7:10 AM

    Thanks for all your help.
    
    Here is a link to my tests:
    http://soilandwaterconsulting.com/india ... ntry-club/