Smooth vs Grooved front rollers Cancel The title field is required!

1. Hardy Andrew

   
   10/31/2011 1:10 PM

   Looking into converting from grooved to smooth and was looking to see what benefits you have seen from this transition. Also, does it reduce turf stress during the heat of the summer? Do you keep them on all season?
   
   I do understand some of the negatives with HOC and quality of cut. But based on 3 straight years of escalating disease pressure and the expense related to that pressure. If one small change can help then I'm game for the change.
   
   Your thoughts??

   
   
   
   
2. James Rauhuff

   

   0 posts
   
   10/31/2011 2:10 PM

   kkisaok said: Looking into converting from grooved to smooth and was looking to see what benefits you have seen from this transition. Also, does it reduce turf stress during the heat of the summer? Do you keep them on all season?
   
   I do understand some of the negatives with HOC and quality of cut. But based on 3 straight years of escalating disease pressure and the expense related to that pressure. If one small change can help then I'm game for the change.
   
   Your thoughts??

   
   Smooth front rollers are definately the way to go in times of stress. They especially help with cleanup laps, where most of the turning is done. We put them on when it starts to become hot and they stay on all summer long. They are not as aggresive as grooved rollers, but the quality of cut is something that we will trade off to know that we are helping the plant during this time period.

   
   
   
   
3. Patrick Reinhardt

   

   0 posts
   
   11/1/2011 5:11 AM

   Solids usually mid-June through August on bentgrass in Atlanta. Grooved the rest of the year. Definitely less stress using the solids in the summer.

   
   
   
   
4. McCallum David K

   
   11/1/2011 6:11 AM

   We use them year round now.......we at one time switched like others do but stopped.

   
   
   
   
5. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   11/1/2011 6:11 AM

   I'm doing exactly that starting in the spring. It's an experiment but I started thinking that you don't see any lines of uncut grass where where the whiele is smooth on the surface so why would a entirely smooth roller be a problem. It may mean setting the height lower but I'm willing to find out.
   I tired of thinning turf in the summer with no noticeable disease present

   
   
   
   
6. Morozowsky Martin

   
   11/4/2011 10:11 PM

   21 flex with smooth front rollers and brush..never going to change!
   
   
   Martin
   Seven Oaks Country Club
   Freakin hot bakersfield ca

   
   
   
   
7. John Ballard

   

   0 posts
   
   11/5/2011 1:11 PM

   Smooth rollers all season long. USGA field rep promotes them particularly as it relates to not "flicking" up topdressing sand.

   
   
   
   
8. Joe Wachter

   

   5 posts
   
   11/7/2011 8:11 AM

   Andrew,
   
   Would use for 6-8 weeks during heat of summer but switched last season and ran the entire season. A lot less scalping during the hot/soft season along the edges that normally scalped. Clean up passes looked good all year. We will have to groom and brush a little more often but I think my 100 year old push up greens will appreciate the effort. Did have some turf loss this summer like last year but 3rd warmest summer on record had more to do with it than the style roller. Staff have to keep rollers wiped etc from build up on front roller but that is basically a management issue. Reminding them of the importance of a clean roller and spot checking them from time to time solves that problem.

   
   
   
   
9. Scott Hoffmann

   

   0 posts
   
   11/21/2011 8:11 AM

   Andrew,
   
   Sorry, just catching up on The Forum as our season has ground to a close. Been doing this for over 35 years and was in the "no grain" camp for most of those. Finally realized as we were seeing more and more poa there is not a bentgrass out there that can compete with Poa on density. (I am a slow learner) With the help of an outstanding consultant we changed our program to a "less is more" philosophy with smooth rollers being a cornerstone of the program.
   
   We let "bent be bent" and discovered we could push our HOC to .080 and with less density the bent is thriving with fewer plants to compete against allowing the bent to creep and overtake the poa. At the low HOC the grain is seldom a problem and greens are extremely smooth and quick. Very occaisional grooming is required.
   
   We have three golf courses. Two with old push-ups that have gone from 40-70% poa to 90 % bent over a three year period. Our third course has 15 year old USGA greens and we have kept the poa population under 10 %.
   
   Scott Hoffmann, CGCS

   
   
   
   
10. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    11/21/2011 9:11 AM

    Scott,
    
    I'm not sure but if I understood correctly you have gone to smooth rollers exclusively?
    
    Also, are the groove rollers suppose to help with the grain? I do think we suffer from some grain as we watch putts roll more going one way then the other and we have very flat greens. But we use grooved rollers and mow at .156. (we think that we see this, don't have a stimpmeter to confirm our observation)
    
    What are your grooming practices? I would call our light verticutting and topdressing every couple of weeks during the spring and fall grooming, once we get into the summer we only verticut when we get a cool spell, otherwise we might spike and topdress or just topdress.
    
    Interested in what others call grooming as well.
    
    Thanks, Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
11. Scott Hoffmann

    

    0 posts
    
    11/21/2011 1:11 PM

    Mel,
    
    The grooved rollers will aid in grain removal, but what I am saying is that I want some grain to allow the bent to compete with the upright poa plant. At the very low height of cut the grain does not affect ball roll in fact our guests continually comment on how true the roll is.
    
    Because the bent naturally grows laterally it has a better chance of competing at those heights. As with anything you can get too much of a good thing and from time to time we will have to remove some grain either through vertical mowing or brushing. We also keep another mower with grooved rollers that we may use 1-2/week depending on the conditions.
    
    Because we try to grow the grass very slowly, (emptying the triplex buckets every 12 greens or so with 7,000 sq. ft. greens) our grooming (verti-cutting or brushing) is only needed 4-5 times/season.
    
    Scott

    
    
    
    
12. David Brandenburg

    

    3 posts
    
    11/22/2011 6:11 PM

    Scott wrote"
    Because we try to grow the grass very slowly, (emptying the triplex buckets every 12 greens or so with 7,000 sq. ft. greens) our grooming (verti-cutting or brushing) is only needed 4-5 times/season.
    
    Wow that is slow. Our greens are a bit bigger when we are growing slow we empty every third green but normally it is every other green at .125. We have a lot of traffic so the growth helps with recovery. We verticut 4 to 5 times a year and we usually take a cushman load of material off the greens. The verticut unit empties every other pass.
    
    I have seen less problems on the cleanup pass with the tri-segmented grooved rollers that allow the individual units to follow the contour without scuffing on the inside.

    
    
    
    
13. Jason Cook

    

    0 posts
    
    11/23/2011 2:11 PM

    Andrew,
    
    If I may ask a pointed question, "Why do you feel like you need to change"? Please do not take this as a negative, but what benefits do you expect to see? I'm a huge proponent for smooth rollers and I know the benefits, but very few responses have given you minimal listed benefits. Why are you using grooved rollers currently? I think a very critical component to you making the switch is why you feel the need to. Reduced stress may be a key answer, but how do you feel that will change with a smooth versus grooved?
    
    The USGA is now starting to recommend the use of them and I have a strong opinion as to why. Not flicking up sand shouldn't be one of them or a reason to change.
    
    Jason

    
    
    
    
14. Hardy Andrew

    
    11/23/2011 4:11 PM

    I would love to reduce some stress on the turf during high-stress periods. Though we are in Canada, we do receive similar weather to the NE US. Grooved rollers were installed for quality of cut and because "that's what everyone was using". I would be willing to switch with the seasons but I have had a lot of peer feedback about Bentgrass increasing. Our greens are so far gone with Poa aand would love to turn the tide towards Bent. Thank you for being so frank. Feel free to email me next time at andrew@pheasantrungolf.com

    
    
    
    
15. Jason Cook

    

    0 posts
    
    11/23/2011 8:11 PM

    Andy,
    
    I didn't intend to come off so "prickly" and realize I have offended you. My apologies. You asked a very valid question and your honesty related to "that is what everyone is using" is very important to my questioning/answers. Trying to promote bentgrass has it's merits.
    
    The aggressiveness of a grooved roller is a fairly big negative when maintaining turfgrass (bentgrass/any sports turf) in climates prone to high moisture/heat (NE US), especially if your greens have severe contours. The roller can "sink-in" and produce a lower HOC then bench set and create issues with crown damage, especially in thatchy or overly wet conditions. If you are experiencing scalping, a smooth roller will aid in curing this phenomenon. The smooth roller in turn provides more surface area contacting the turf, thus producing a slightly smoother surface in my opinion.
    
    As for quality of cut, I suspect your cutting height will influence your perceived quality of cut questions. With the lateral growth of bentgrass, perceived "grain" may become an issue, but creeping is it's nature and you want this. Verticutting it/preventing it to move laterally will negatively influence your desire for density/population increase. Brushing will provide you with the desired removal of leaf tissue without damaging the crown/stolons.
    
    With escalating disease pressure (please feel free to define that) in the past few years, my recommendation would be to make the switch and stick with it all season long. I make that statement based on the philosophy that a healthier plant in the spring will provide leeway through the summer stress periods. Making the change at the stress point will help, but you could lose the opportunity for added benefits all spring.
    
    Do you have a roller to utilize on alternate days? The mechanical stress of mowing is alleviated via this process and can aid in turfgrass health.
    
    Once again, sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way with the questioning.
    
    Smooth rollers are a good start.

    
    
    
    
16. Hardy Andrew

    
    11/24/2011 5:11 PM

    Jason,
    
    Absolutely no offense taken. I started the thread and was hoping for more than people saying "yes do it". The last 2 greens mowers purchased were done so with grooved for the exact reason I stated. I had a USGA visit this year and he said based on the summer stress and weather we face that a move to smooth was a strong recommendation. I am constantly battling Anthracnose and Summer Patch to the tune of 237 trees removed this fall. So if the smooth will also aide in turning things around then that is what has to be done. Its a matter of doing what has to be done to provide top notch conditions.
    
    The old school thought process has been weeded out with the dismissal of our Mechanic. So now I can do the job the way I feel it needs to be done without hurting someones feelings by topdressing.
    
    I have done a tonne of rolling over my 4 seasons as Superintendent and will continue to do so going forward. Grain is really the least of my worries at this point, as I know I can keep it in check via brushing.
    
    I realize this is all a process and I'm trying to do what's best for the course.

    
    
    
    
17. Jesse Goodling

    

    2 posts
    
    11/28/2011 11:11 AM

    We use smooth rollers on all our equipment now, greensmowers, fairway mowers, tee mowers and trim mowers-all year. We are mowing greens now at .090, but only about once a week. In the summer, we are at .075, and are getting more and more bent all the time. We also use high amounts of Iron Sulfate, 2 lbs /1000, in 10 gal of water/1000. This helps keep the pH low, which the bent likes and the poa doesn't. We were always told that you can't grow bent in the PNW, but are up to 80-90% bent now on our greens.

    
    Equipment lifts
    
    
18. Hardy Andrew

    
    11/30/2011 8:11 AM

    Amazing what I have found in the shop sice our Mechanic was let go. 11 smooth rollers which gives more than enough to convert all my greens mowers this winter. Looking forward to seeing the results.

    
    
    
    
19. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    12/3/2011 4:12 PM

    I'm curious as to is anyone mowing at .156 and using smooth rollers?
    
    I wonder if I was to switch to smooth rollers would I want to be lowing my HOC? I would hate to go lower then .140. I am more worried about healthy greens then speed with our golfers.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
20. Hardy Andrew

    
    12/3/2011 4:12 PM

    From what I have gathered you would have to lower height. I cut at .130" and was looking at going in the .115-.120" range with the smooth.

    
    
    
    
21. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    12/4/2011 3:12 PM

    Thanks Andrew for that answer. I guess my answer to myself is to stay at .156 and continue with my program. My hope is that root mass is not lost as much in the summer, as it might if I go lower. I remember a study from K-State (I think the professor is now at Rutgers) that showed no root loss at .156. Like I said, our players are not concerned with speeds.
    
    I mowed at this height in NE Indiana with Toro 1000's and our green speeds were fine, our college players seemed to like them, they would roll around 10 pretty consistently and with the slopes we had, the greens played fair.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
22. Hardy Andrew

    
    12/5/2011 7:12 AM

    I've found the last 3 seasons that mowing at .130" hasn't negatively affected speeds. That's why I have no hesitation in going at a higher height. And to be honest, after the last 2 seasons and disease pressure speed is the least of my worries.

    
    
    
    
23. Joe Wachter

    

    5 posts
    
    12/5/2011 8:12 AM

    Mel,
    
    If most in golf were at .156, we would all sleep much better at night. If you would go to solid rollers, you would need to bump down probably to .140-.145 to keep the same rolling condition that you have now. Utilizing a prism would help you with your actual height of your turf vs your bench settings. You will need to brush/groom a little more to reduce some of the growth effects you get out of solid vs grooved rollers.