Raising mower heights with faster ball speed Cancel The title field is required!

1. Damian Moreau

   

   0 posts
   
   12/12/2012 8:12 PM

   I have been hearing alot of talk about clubs raising their mower heights to .140 and .150 and rolling 11 and 12's. I have talked to several vendors about the program but not to anyone that is actually doing it and having success with it. Interested in finding out what program you are on and what practices you are using. The main thing I have heard is using as little souble N as possible. Granular 100% slow release N, high K, high Mn and high Fe. Of course weekly light verticutting and topdressing during the growing season. Tried it this summer but never could get my speeds up when I raised the HOC.

   
   
   
   
2. Steven Chernosky

   

   4 posts
   
   12/13/2012 6:12 AM

   Roll, roll, roll and then roll again. We roll our greens using a Tru-Turf roller 5-6 times per week depending upon conditions. We spray Primo year round at rates ranging from 1oz-8oz/A, again depending upon the growing conditions.

   
   
   
   
3. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   12/13/2012 6:12 AM

   Todd Lowe with the USGA down here in Florida was the one that told me about this program. We've reduced our foliar N and are now applying granular slow-release N every two to three weeks at roughly .33#N/m. We also apply Primo at 3ozs/ac weekly. Our mowing heights have been .140-.150" since about May. We roll two to three times each week in conjunction with mowing. We've rolled anywhere from 8.5' during the summer rainy season to about a 12' once it got colder. This is on TifDwarf.
   
   It's funny to hear people bragging about the fast speeds and how high they are cutting their greens. Big turnaround from a few years ago when guys were bragging about how low they have their mowers.
   
   I can tell you that our greens have never looked better. I'm very pleased with the results and sleep a heck of a lot better at night.

   
   
   
   
4. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   12/13/2012 7:12 AM

   Is this something that is being done on just ultradwarf bermudas or bermudas themselves?
   
   Anyone using the program on cool season greens?
   
   I will say years ago when I was in Indiana (I know some of you have heard this one before) we mowed at .156 with Toro 1000 or .140 with our 3100 triplex and would see speeds around 9 to 9.5. We used Primo, Gary's Green and Sili-Kal-B every two weeks. I think moisture management was a key to this as well, along with the Toro 1000 and that big back roller. Wish we had the tools back then with moisture meters to see how well we controlled it. I will say we also verticut and topdressed every three weeks.
   
   Where I'm at here we mow with a triplex all the time at .156 still use Gary's Green and Sili-K-B, Primo, use a little CPR at times topdress and verticut every two weeks, (topdress and spike in mid summer) and I think we are usually in the 8's which is ok for our golfers. I wondered if our watering and the higher humidity play a bigger role?
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
5. Damian Moreau

   

   0 posts
   
   12/13/2012 9:12 AM

   Not sure if it is being used on cool season grasses. I somewhat was on the program this summer but I don't think I was applying enough K. I am told to use about 2 lbs of K per month to stiffen the leaf blade. I was using too much soluble N especially during my three aerifications so I will have to figure out another way to push the grass without the use of N. We had a annual meeting with our local chapter and Todd Lowe spoke on the program but not in detail. All he said was to verticut weekly, topdress with finer sands but not too fine and apply a slow release N fert. at about .25 lbs every two weeks. To achieve a 12 on the stimp I usually have to mow with my JD walkers at .090 and roll but only for tournaments. We have Tifeagle. He also said guys are verticutting all winter long and topdressing which I am a little sceptical of fearing if I thin them out and we get some cloudy wet weather I will fight algae all winter. Maybe in South Florida but Mobile, AL? I use my brushes on the mowers to control grain and topdress lightly as needed throughout the winter but not verticut.

   
   
   
   
6. Hardy Andrew

   
   12/13/2012 10:12 AM

   Soluble Amm Sulfate, Primo on 200GDD program, granular slow release 5-6 times/year, kelp/seaweed, blackstrap molasses, a really good wetting agent and all complimented with my Civitas program and LOTS of rolling. We roll 5-6 days/week and mow at .140" and keep consistent speeds at 10-10.5 and can dial them up faster with double cuts and double rolls. Fastest we had them for Club C's this year was 12'.

   
   
   
   
7. James Smith

   

   112 posts
   
   12/16/2012 6:12 AM

   To start with, no I am not on the program. and sorry for this being long.
   
   I have TifEagle greens and three years ago I had an issue with scalping at the end of the summer season. Generally speaking I have to raise my HOC during the summer stressful months to .150" due to scalping at the lower HOC's and I stop verticutting until it starts cooling off. I had always tried to get them back down to .125" when the temps get back into the 80's, but two years ago I was scalping no matter what I tried. so I left them at .150" and continued with my normal program which is about 1/2 - 1lb of N per month and Primo applications. within about three weeks I started hearing about how fast my greens were but I kept my mouth shut as to my HOC's knowing certain members think HOC = greens speeds. I continued this HOC into the winter and kept hearing about how fast the greens were rolling. My greens looked the best they had in many years coming out of our stressful summer heat. they were full and thick. whenever I verticut them the speeds dropped at least 2'. That summer convinced me that the higher HOC's can give me the needed speeds my club desired but it took a different thought process then I had been use to. instead of looking at the greens in the normal short height I began looking at them for their thickness or fullness.
   
   It is widely known that the ball should roll on the tips of the blade and the more tips the less drag on the ball. this is why they would slow down during verticutting week, because we took a lot of those leaf tips away. I like to compare this effect to that of a golf cart riding on the cartpath compared to the grass. when on the path it runs smoother and faster but once you get into the fairway or rough it slows down.
   
   It was also cheaper to keep them at .150" then it was at .125" because the turf was healthier at the higher HOC and did not require as much fungicides to combat disease. my root system got deeper and the overall looks were a lot better. I still continue this program from summer to winter but not from spring to summer. This is because it seems to take my greens a longer time to thicken up from greenup to summer stress point. I generally just use my scalping point as a meter as to when to go up on my HOC. I also know that my main reason for scalping is the bed-knife we use. My Equipment tech always uses the tournament knife but is known to grind a 1/16"-1/8" flat edge on the knife which I believe is too thick and pushes the thicker turf instead of gliding over it.
   
   I happened upon this program by accident due to need and I believe I had posted in here about it when I had experienced the faster speeds. So yes this program can work, but, and I mean but, it only works with healthy thick turf. if your turf thins out they will get a lot slower and I mean a lot slower, you could easily go from rolling 11's to rolling 8's in a matter of 1-2 weeks.

   
   
   
   
8. Kim Brock

   

   3 posts
   
   12/17/2012 5:12 PM

   What kind of slow release are you putting down? IBDU, Nutralene? It would have to be very small particles so greens mowers don't pick it up. Thanks, KIM

   
   
   
   
9. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   12/17/2012 6:12 PM

   Kim Brock said: What kind of slow release are you putting down? IBDU, Nutralene? It would have to be very small particles so greens mowers don't pick it up. Thanks, KIM

   
   
   BCMU or MDU. I don't think they make IBDU anymore.

   
   
   
   
10. Simon Parkin

    

    0 posts
    
    12/18/2012 3:12 PM

    What kind of practices are carried out in the winter months on "the program"?
    Do you topdress and granular fertilize year round?
    
    In the past I have just left the greens alone and alternated rolling/mowing through the winter period, depending on temps. What are the differences with this program?
    
    Cheers.
    
    Simon Parkin
    Lakewood Golf Club @ Marriott's Grand Hotel.

    
    
    
    
11. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    12/18/2012 3:12 PM

    I stay on the program all winter, but the grass never really stops growing here. I verticut and top dress lightly every other week and spike every other week. It seems to work.
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
12. Andy Jorgensen

    

    1 posts
    
    12/18/2012 4:12 PM

    If you watched the Father-Son Challenge at the Ritz Carlton in Orlando this past weekend, my inside source says greens were at .140", straight granular with no liquid N, rolling 12.5'.

    
    
    
    
13. Anthony Nysse

    

    1 posts
    
    12/21/2012 8:12 AM

    We've always subscribed to the thinking of higher heights, the more sand we can topdress with and not pick up. More sand=firmer greens, better ball roll, healthier turf. More sand=less ball drag and faster greens. We have never had to mow ultra low to achieve high green speeds. Let them be a little sandy.

    
    
    
    
14. Smith Kerry L

    
    12/21/2012 1:12 PM

    Tony, how do you handle sand build up on rollers when mowing in dew?

    
    
    
    
15. Steven Huffstutler

    

    11 posts
    
    12/21/2012 3:12 PM

    Kerry Smith said: Tony, how do you handle sand build up on rollers when mowing in dew?

    
    
    Tony is right. If you have some room to hide sand, you can achieve the speeds you want without nipping them so low. As far as sand buildup goes, we use scrapers on the rollers and a guy with a dew whip to clean up the clumps. Besides, we're really not talking about that much sand.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    
    
    
16. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    12/22/2012 6:12 AM

    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:

    Kerry Smith said: Tony, how do you handle sand build up on rollers when mowing in dew?

    
    
    Tony is right. If you have some room to hide sand, you can achieve the speeds you want without nipping them so low. As far as sand buildup goes, we use scrapers on the rollers and a guy with a dew whip to clean up the clumps. Besides, we're really not talking about that much sand.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    same method here. most of the sand is from the flat worms leaving their castings on the surface of our greens.

    
    
    
    
17. Anthony Nysse

    

    1 posts
    
    12/22/2012 6:12 AM

    James Smith said:

    Steven Huffstutler, CGCS said:

    Kerry Smith said: Tony, how do you handle sand build up on rollers when mowing in dew?

    
    
    Tony is right. If you have some room to hide sand, you can achieve the speeds you want without nipping them so low. As far as sand buildup goes, we use scrapers on the rollers and a guy with a dew whip to clean up the clumps. Besides, we're really not talking about that much sand.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    
    same method here. most of the sand is from the flat worms leaving their castings on the surface of our greens.

    
    Correct. We have an older set of 11 blades (usually mow with 14s) and they're are set .005" higher to minimize sand pick up. Then it a little extra dew whipping. The rolling of the green after the mow actually knocks down a lot of sand. Regardless, we very rarely have a mess.

    
    
    
    
18. Albert Bancroft

    

    0 posts
    
    12/22/2012 6:12 AM

    Damien,
    
    Typically mow between 4-6mm year round .196 - .230 on our bent greens and can maintain speeds between 9-10 depending on season. Our rainy / typhoon season can be pretty severe and everything is just slower during that time. We do alot of grooming when we can and one thing that has really helped was putting the heavyweight front rollers on our JD walk behinds. Have old pushup greens and if it has rained at all basically cannot roll with the greens irons was a problem around tournaments so if possible we will mow around 5pm the night before to get an extra cut / roll with the walkers. Have to agree much easier to get fertilizer / sand down in the profile when the HOC is up a bit. Try and time topdressing with Revolution app - seems to really help move the sand down.

    
    
    
    
19. Chuck Barber

    

    0 posts
    
    12/22/2012 8:12 AM

    Poa annua/bentgrass mixed stand. Toro 1000 at .125"/solid front roller. Topdress once a week 2 tons/a. Knock dew off before next mowing with irrigation system. Groom/brush/verticut etc when weather is good prior to topdressing. Coco mat sand. Salsco roll.
    
    We typically mow 5 or 6 days a week, only double mow during events (6 or 7 times/year) and roll 6 days a week. We were fairly consistent at 10.5 or 11 before we lost control of regulation in 100 degree heat. When the weather cooled, we were right back at it. Fairly healthy turf.
    
    One thing I will avoid at all costs is primo in conjunction with sea kelp or other 'boutique' fertilizers. We're going to spray either ammonium sulfate, manganese sulfate or iron sulfate and our granular will be 90% ammonium sulfate 12 3 12 from Anderson's. I believe that we're asking the grass to do some wierd things in stress it's not supposed to be doing by adding a bunch of conflicting stuff. Just getting signals crossed between 'should I grow' with sea kelp or other stress fighting additives and 'should I not grow' with Primo. I am not going to do that again.

    
    
    
    
20. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    12/23/2012 12:12 PM

    Chuck Barber said: Poa annua/bentgrass mixed stand. Toro 1000 at .125"/solid front roller. Topdress once a week 2 tons/a. Knock dew off before next mowing with irrigation system. Groom/brush/verticut etc when weather is good prior to topdressing. Coco mat sand. Salsco roll.
    
    We typically mow 5 or 6 days a week, only double mow during events (6 or 7 times/year) and roll 6 days a week. We were fairly consistent at 10.5 or 11 before we lost control of regulation in 100 degree heat. When the weather cooled, we were right back at it. Fairly healthy turf.
    
    One thing I will avoid at all costs is primo in conjunction with sea kelp or other 'boutique' fertilizers. We're going to spray either ammonium sulfate, manganese sulfate or iron sulfate and our granular will be 90% ammonium sulfate 12 3 12 from Anderson's. I believe that we're asking the grass to do some wierd things in stress it's not supposed to be doing by adding a bunch of conflicting stuff. Just getting signals crossed between 'should I grow' with sea kelp or other stress fighting additives and 'should I not grow' with Primo. I am not going to do that again.

    
    I.m with you on that. It worked well this past season

    
    
    
    
21. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    12/23/2012 12:12 PM

    Larry Allan said:

    Chuck Barber said: Poa annua/bentgrass mixed stand. Toro 1000 at .125"/solid front roller. Topdress once a week 2 tons/a. Knock dew off before next mowing with irrigation system. Groom/brush/verticut etc when weather is good prior to topdressing. Coco mat sand. Salsco roll.
    
    We typically mow 5 or 6 days a week, only double mow during events (6 or 7 times/year) and roll 6 days a week. We were fairly consistent at 10.5 or 11 before we lost control of regulation in 100 degree heat. When the weather cooled, we were right back at it. Fairly healthy turf.
    
    One thing I will avoid at all costs is primo in conjunction with sea kelp or other 'boutique' fertilizers. We're going to spray either ammonium sulfate, manganese sulfate or iron sulfate and our granular will be 90% ammonium sulfate 12 3 12 from Anderson's. I believe that we're asking the grass to do some wierd things in stress it's not supposed to be doing by adding a bunch of conflicting stuff. Just getting signals crossed between 'should I grow' with sea kelp or other stress fighting additives and 'should I not grow' with Primo. I am not going to do that again.

    
    I.m with you on that. It worked well this past season

    
    
    I would like to see more research on these items. I have always been a big Primo sprayer, but I have also used some of the boutique (I guess, that is a broad term) and just recently added a sea kelp based fertilizer the past two seasons because it had been working for some others. But I will say I think some of them do not use Primo. My greens did look good for the most part, I guess the tough part is we have developed all these little programs ourselves and I am guessing trying to research all of these would be a little tough. Of course the new information on Primo with 200 GDD certainly has been changing programs too.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
22. Larry Allan

    

    0 posts
    
    12/23/2012 4:12 PM

    Its likely a bit of a leap but when you hear of some of these guys dealing with bacterial wilt associated with Primo and bio-stimulants, I can't but wonder if there is a relationship. In most cases Primo was used before the onset of symptoms successfully but once a number of bio-stimulants were added to the mix the problems began.
    I may be out in left field or have my order mixed up but who knows

    
    
    
    
23. Melvin Waldron

    

    43 posts
    
    12/23/2012 6:12 PM

    Larry Allan said: Its likely a bit of a leap but when you hear of some of these guys dealing with bacterial wilt associated with Primo and bio-stimulants, I can't but wonder if there is a relationship. In most cases Primo was used before the onset of symptoms successfully but once a number of bio-stimulants were added to the mix the problems began.
    I may be out in left field or have my order mixed up but who knows

    
    
    Red, I might agree with you, I wonder if too, when we mention boutique fertilizers, sea-kelp products, bio-stimulants, and/or just foliar fertilizers are we talking apples to apples or what exactly. I know my program has for about 10 years had Primo and Gary's Green and Sili-Kal-B in it. I used to occasionally use some sea-kelp products in the spring and fall to help root development, Seaquential for one. This past year I started using CPR during the summer along with my Grigg brothers products. I don't think of them as boutique fertilizers maybe because they have been around so long, I don't consider them bio-stimulants either, but I guess the point I'm wondering, are they considered or not. Why I would hope to see more research on all of these items.
    
    Mel

    
    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
    
    
24. Virgil Range

    

    0 posts
    
    12/27/2012 6:12 AM

    Red,
    
    I am leaving Primo out of my program this year to see if there is a difference in the bacteria decline. Not for sure if the primo is the cause of it but we will see.
    
    Virgil