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Princess bermuda seed?

7 posts
  1. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    5/8/2015 7:05 AM
    Good morning fellow Superintendents. I have been ask a turf question by my club vice president that is about another clubs intent to seed Princess into their Champion greens. Before jumping to conclusions let me explain a little. this person is very good friends with other high ranking members at the other club and they constantly compare/ask questions of each other as a way of learning and of making sure they may not be making mistakes. I do not know the course superintendent and try not to get into a situation where anything I can say would go against whatever he is trying to do. I have a great working relationship with the Vice President where I can be honest about my feelings towards sticking my nose in other superintendents business. That said, I also do not mind telling him if it something I would or would not do if asked about the other course.

    I was ask by my VP if I had ever heard of seeding Princess (possibly princess 2) into live Champion Bermuda!
    Before going any further, Has anyone ever done this or heard of it being done?

    I gave him my opinion that I have not heard of any bermuda seed that can be used on greens, let alone seeded into live bermuda greens. I told him that the method of choice would be to spray Roundup and Fuselade to kill the champion, wait two weeks and repeat the application then wait two more weeks to be sure its dead. then you could sprigg in a new greens turf (the no till method). I let him know upfront not to hold my statement as fact until I researched it for him. I told him that simply seeding bermuda into an live, aggressive Champion would never take. I also told him that I thought that princess was more of a fairway/tee/rough type turf. In my opinion doing this would be a waste of money and time. This was what he thought also. I again told him I would ask other superintendents around the nation to make sure my thoughts were correct.

    Any input other then to stay out of other courses politics? (wish I could)

    To be honest I think my VP is only trying to help keep them from wasting money. he said that they did their greens three years ago (I am guessing planting the Champion) and seem to always take the cheap way out which is why their back to this point.

    Also just to clear something up. The guy running the course was moved up from the crew after many of years of service because it was all they could afford. He has done a great job for a club without any money. I think he sits behind a group of members that make the real decisions. He is basically a do-it-all type of person which I have only met once. This is actually the first time he has ask me about a project they are going to attempt.

    I will talk to my VP after getting more information but I already know that my first advice will be for him to tell his friends to bring in the USGA agronomist for their opinion. It would be money well spent.



  2. Corey Eastwood
    Corey Eastwood avatar
    80 posts
    5/8/2015 11:05 AM
    Why not meet this other Superintendent for lunch one day and find out exactly what he or they did .No matter how he got there does not describe the the talent he may or may not have. Learning from others experiences far out ways formal schooling. Communication and interaction is the key to success in our business.

    Corey Eastwood CGCS, Stockton Golf & CC, Retired

  3. Andrew Edgerley
    Andrew Edgerley avatar
    0 posts
    5/8/2015 1:05 PM
    As the person that is advising the club to do this I felt the need to post. Nowhere in the post was it ever mentioned about the club's financial status, current conditioning, staff levels, or equipment.

    This club has a budget sub $120,000 a year (including staff) and poor equipment. The current front nine greens have 30% coverage at best. The use of Princess was to only fill in voids because the current management told me that they wanted coverage for the rest of the season. The intent is to overseed in the fall and try to resprig in the future. I got several quotes for sprigs and the economic position they are in now doesn't make this a option. This club has to plan ahead and does not have cash reserves to accomplish this. The princess is being used more as a "bandaid" and not a solution.

    Their was a application error of a herbicide and the greens are coming back. The grass that is coming back is all 419 and leo. There is hardly any champion out there so calling them "Champion" greens is a misinterpretation at best. any questions feel free to ask.



  4. Andrew Edgerley
    Andrew Edgerley avatar
    0 posts
    5/8/2015 1:05 PM
    The Greens were no till renovated to Champion 10 years ago as well

    Just a little background I go over there 3 times a week only to consult. I'm the director of agronomy at the course down the street. Their superintendent has been on the crew over there for over 10 years and they promoted him to save money



  5. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    5/8/2015 3:05 PM
    Thanks for chiming in Andrew.

    The main reason I did not want to go by there is it is about 2 hours each way and I am not trying to give advice to the club. I am just trying to explain to my VP whether or not its a good idea. I had no background of the situation and to be honest no desire to promote anything to do with another club or Superintendent. I was simply trying to gather facts to fill in to my VP who has been friends with their club for over 30 years. We are both low budget courses that have similar makeups and I have never heard anything bad about their superintendent or the job he does, only good things.

    Andrew, I want to apologize for any ill will I may have created. I was simply ask if this was a fix for some issue (I was not told any background). I am glad that you have chimed in because now I Know 200% more then yesterday. I can get back to my VP with info he may not have if he confronts me about it again (otherwise I am leaving it alone).

    I did not mention anything about the club because I know nothing about that club other then I have been there for a few Chapter meetings and met the Superintendent once.

    Andrew, 30% coverage is not very good. I will be honest and say if it was my club I most likely would be happy to see the Champion go but Its because I have Tif Eagle and love it.

    What height of cut do you feel they will be able to get with the Princess, and have you done this before? what type of fertility program are they trying right now? have they attempted a grow in program using ammonia sulfate? I have had issues in the past with my 328 greens that warranted bandaid solutions because we had no money. I know this is supposed to be a bandaid I am just curious and always interested in learning something new.

    Last thing! This post was a prime example of how misinformation can be passed around through word of mouth without meaning to. Her I am being ask a question by a board member without all of the background needed to make a proper conclusion from. So I am the third person in the chain so far, I ask others their opinion which makes them the fourth people and we still did not have any facts!

    Rest assured that I will clear this up when asked again! I can never fault someone for trying something with little or nothing to use (especially money). I would fault them for not trying anything at all.



  6. Cecil Daniel
    Cecil Daniel avatar
    0 posts
    5/11/2015 8:05 AM
    Just my two cents. Spend the money on fertilizer, not seed. Move some plugs around. Don't let them get too dry. Turn 30% coverage into 60 or 70 and keep pins in the best spots



  7. Cecil Daniel
    Cecil Daniel avatar
    0 posts
    5/11/2015 8:05 AM
    Maybe someone in your area will be taking cores from champion greens. You could re sprig with them for cheap.



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