Perennial Ryegrass Color Cancel The title field is required!

1. Tyler Broderick

   

   2 posts
   
   1/6/2014 7:01 AM

   I need a little help. If anyone can shed some light on whats going on I would appreciate it.
   
   I am in Maricopa, AZ (just south of Phoenix) and I have overseeded my tees, fairways, and green surround with perennial rye. We seeded in late September and everything went great. Recently, the fairways as a whole (not approaches or tees or greens) have been turning brown/yellow. Upon closer inspection, it appears that it is the older leaves from the ryegrass that are changing. No signs of wilting, just the older leaf checks out. I know that isn't a lot of info to go on, but that is what I am seeing.
   
   Can anyone shine some light? I can offer more background if needed.
   
   Tyler

   
   
   
   
2. Smith Kerry L

   
   1/6/2014 8:01 AM

   Could use more info but first thought is are the mowers good and sharp?

   
   
   
   
3. Morozowsky Martin

   
   1/6/2014 10:01 AM

   Did you use any herbicides in the fall or summer? How many units of N per acre did you use? Or do you see the beginnings of the poa growing? How much frost did you have? What varieties of ryegrass did you use? Just some thoughts.
   
   Martin Morozowsky
   Seven Oaks Country Club

   
   
   
   
4. James Schmid

   

   1 posts
   
   1/6/2014 10:01 AM

   Fertilize it. Assumably your fairways are more beat up because of cart traffic. Ryegrass slows down in your area with the short days and cooler temps this time of year. Put out a pound of N.

   
   
   
   
5. Tyler Broderick

   

   2 posts
   
   1/6/2014 10:01 AM

   Martin Morozowsky said: Did you use any herbicides in the fall or summer? How many units of N per acre did you use? Or do you see the beginnings of the poa growing? How much frost did you have? What varieties of ryegrass did you use? Just some thoughts.
   
   Martin Morozowsky
   Seven Oaks Country Club

   
   
   We used Diquat in the September to kill off the bermuda top growth. No other herbicides, wetting agents, or PGRs. We seeded with a blend of perennial rye (Esquire, AllStar 2, Platimum, Ponderosa) at a rate of 550lbs/A. After seeding we put out 7-25-1 plus micros in several applications totalling 300lbs/A. After that we used 21-0-0 in multiple applications to 300lbs/A. We finished fertilizing Thanksgiving. The ryegrass looked great until about 3 weeks ago. It has gotten colder. Since mid Dec we see frost almost daily and the average temp for the last 4 weeks is 66.5H and 35.5L.
   
   The thing I can't get past is that we have done the same things for the all the rygrass. Tees and approached look fine and they have been treated the same as the fairways.

   
   
   
   
6. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   1/6/2014 10:01 AM

   Tyler Broderick said:

   Martin Morozowsky said: Did you use any herbicides in the fall or summer? How many units of N per acre did you use? Or do you see the beginnings of the poa growing? How much frost did you have? What varieties of ryegrass did you use? Just some thoughts.
   
   Martin Morozowsky
   Seven Oaks Country Club

   
   
   We used Diquat in the September to kill off the bermuda top growth. No other herbicides, wetting agents, or PGRs. We seeded with a blend of perennial rye (Esquire, AllStar 2, Platimum, Ponderosa) at a rate of 550lbs/A. After seeding we put out 7-25-1 plus micros in several applications totalling 300lbs/A. After that we used 21-0-0 in multiple applications to 300lbs/A. We finished fertilizing Thanksgiving. The ryegrass looked great until about 3 weeks ago. It has gotten colder. Since mid Dec we see frost almost daily and the average temp for the last 4 weeks is 66.5H and 35.5L.
   
   The thing I can't get past is that we have done the same things for the all the rygrass. Tees and approached look fine and they have been treated the same as the fairways.

   
   
   James made an interesting guess; do you have any fairways that are cart path only? Do you see the same color on those?
   
   Did you use the same rye grass on tees and approaches?
   
   Do you mow at different heights of cuts on tees, approaches and fairways? Different mowers? Might confirm or rule out Kerry's thoughts.
   
   Do you have last year's weather records? Are they similar to this year?
   
   Has play been heavier to see if traffic is an issue?
   
   Any cultural practices different?
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
7. Tyler Broderick

   

   2 posts
   
   1/6/2014 11:01 AM

   No I do not have any holes that are cart path only, nor would I be able to make that happen.
   
   The round count is a hair lower than this time last year.
   
   The weather is the same.
   
   The type and rate of grass is the same on all areas.
   
   The HOC on tees and approaches is .600in. The HOC is .750in. on fairways.
   
   The tee and approaches reels are in worse shape than the fairway reels.
   
   The only cultural practice that was different was when before we seeded, we lightly verticut the tees and approaches. That makes me think that maybe the seed didn't get down to the soil all the way on the fairways and kind of grew on top of the dormant bermuda. If that is the case maybe it is more susceptible to the colder temperatures?

   
   
   
   
8. Sandy Clark

   

   0 posts
   
   1/6/2014 11:01 AM

   We have the same look. We have had frost delays nearly everyday in December so it is a combination of cold, low humidity constantly and being hungry. I expect our roughs will immediately perk back up when we feed them them in a few days. Our budget year is the same as the calendar year so I put off purchasing rough fertilizer until now.

   
   
   
   
9. James Schmid

   

   1 posts
   
   1/6/2014 3:01 PM

   Sandy Clark, CGCS said: We have the same look. We have had frost delays nearly everyday in December so it is a combination of cold, low humidity constantly and being hungry. I expect our roughs will immediately perk back up when we feed them them in a few days. Our budget year is the same as the calendar year so I put off purchasing rough fertilizer until now.

   
   
   Just put out a pound of N/M with calcium nitrate. cost roughly $85 /ac. How many acres of fairways do you have? Couldnt cost more than a couple of grand. Nitrate acts fast. Your fairways are brown because traffic is beating them up faster than the turf can grow and recover.
   
   As of now you have used less than 2 lb n/m since september, with 5+ weeks since your last app. If you have significant traffic, that aint gonna result in bright green grass

   
   
   
   
10. Sandy Clark

    

    0 posts
    
    1/6/2014 4:01 PM

    I am only talking about rye in roughs. We don't overseed fairways so they are close to dormant. New budget year started a few days ago so I am ordering fert today to get my rough color back. Scary drought out here with no change in sight!

    
    
    
    
11. Morozowsky Martin

    
    1/6/2014 11:01 PM

    If you like calcium nitrate you will love CAN 27 (calcium ammonium nitrate) it pushes growth and it's cheaper than calcium nitrate plus you get some dolomitic lime with it. Plus has a higher unit of N. Don't waste your money on starter fertilizer that seed going to have what nature intended it to germinate with. Seed to soil always!
    
    Martin Morozowsky
    Seven Oaks Country Club

    
    
    
    
12. Ashton Alan W

    
    1/7/2014 8:01 AM

    Tyler Broderick said:
    
    The only cultural practice that was different was when before we seeded, we lightly verticut the tees and approaches. That makes me think that maybe the seed didn't get down to the soil all the way on the fairways and kind of grew on top of the dormant bermuda. If that is the case maybe it is more susceptible to the colder temperatures?

    
    
    From what I've seen at neighboring courses, I think you may have answered your own question. With the new trend being minimal prep (to leave something for transition in the spring), I think we sometimes don't get the seed down far enough to protect the crown. Back in the day (20-25 years ago) if you couldn't see the soil, you weren't finished with your prep!
    
    Couple of things I'm thinking of:
    
    Are you 419 or common?
    Did the Bermuda come back after the water was back on? September is typically early, but a necessary evil...
    If it did, you might lower the heights by a tenth for one or two mowings, then bring them back up... then you'll get your Rye up above the dormant and give you a better look from the tee.
    
    Lastly... this has been the weirdest overseed season I've seen in a number of years.

    
    
    
    
13. James Schmid

    

    1 posts
    
    1/7/2014 10:01 AM

    Martin Morozowsky said: If you like calcium nitrate you will love CAN 27 (calcium ammonium nitrate) it pushes growth and it's cheaper than calcium nitrate plus you get some dolomitic lime with it. Plus has a higher unit of N. Don't waste your money on starter fertilizer that seed going to have what nature intended it to germinate with. Seed to soil always!
    
    Martin Morozowsky
    Seven Oaks Country Club

    
    
    The problem with can 27 is the gigantic particle size. If you try to go at less than 1.5lb N/M on short grass it can speckle really severely

    
    
    
    
14. Morozowsky Martin

    
    1/7/2014 12:01 PM

    I know I have seen it on my tees had to reapply with the walk spreaders. The trick is with the Lely is to slow the speed down so you get a tighter coverage that worked on my fairways and rough.

    
    
    
    
15. Andy Jorgensen

    

    1 posts
    
    1/7/2014 4:01 PM

    We never do any prep for o/s except slightly lower HOC. Any yellowing usually disappears with food. Either granular with micros, or urea and iron sprayed.

    
    
    
    
16. Scot Dey

    

    0 posts
    
    1/7/2014 5:01 PM

    I no longer am at a overseeded golf course (and love it)! That being said when I was we would throw CaNo3 every 4 weeks at .75#sN/M. If we went any longer than that we would go off-color hard and fast. Sounds to me like the older leaves dying back is a sign of a hungry plant. Initially reading I would have guess Primo, but you ruled that out. Best of luck...have you checked salts???

    
    
    
    
17. Michael Posey

    

    0 posts
    
    1/8/2014 10:01 PM

    If you can get someone to coat Calcium Nitrate with Wolftrax iron you will be glowing! Southern States sell an Ammonium Sulfate coated with it here and it is great on bermuda or rye. In your location I would lean towards the Calcium Nitrate though.

    
    
    
    
18. Tyler Broderick

    

    2 posts
    
    1/15/2014 6:01 AM

    Thanks everyone. I think it was from lighter prep work on the fairways and the seed grew on top of the bermuda a bit instead of in it. I will be able to fertilize in about two weeks or so once my budget opens up. I do like and appreciate being able to post a problem and having a bunch of guys bounce ideas and questions off. It really helps me think abut things.