Painting common bermuda fairways Cancel The title field is required!

1. Robert Wright

   

   0 posts
   
   9/19/2014 11:09 AM

   I thought I would revisit this topic since most of the Forum information is a year or two old. Looks like my club won't have enough money to overseed, so we are looking at painting fairways and tees for the coming year. I see many people have success with this so I have a few questions to ask.
   
   1. Product you are using, rate, and frequency of application, plus equipment used.
   
   2. Mowing height of turf before dormancy to insure best playability.
   
   3. Timing of initial application - before dormancy or after if using a pigment vs a paint.
   
   Any other insightful tips would be appreciated. Might be nice not having to do an overseeding this year.
   
   Thanks,
   
   Robert Wright
   Black Mountain G&CC

   
   
   
   
2. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/19/2014 6:09 PM

   The answer to your question is relative to your climate. Where are you?

   
   
   
   
3. Robert Wright

   

   0 posts
   
   9/21/2014 8:09 PM

   I'm in Las Vegas, NV. I read your earlier reports Andy, and know you have done some additional testing so always interested in your knowledge.

   
   
   
   
4. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/22/2014 1:09 PM

   Thanks for the positive comments.
   
   Although most of my work is related to pigments, we have toyed around with paints to some degree. In your climate, I would think a combination of pigments and painting would work best.
   
   To answer your questions:
   
   1. Product you are using, rate, and frequency of application, plus equipment used.
   We use pigments, mid label rate. Bi-weekly using flat fan nozzles.
   
   2. Mowing height of turf before dormancy to insure best playability.
   Increased 20% from normal. For us, go from .500" to .600".
   
   3. Timing of initial application - before dormancy or after if using a pigment vs a paint.
   With pigment, before dormancy. For paint, after your first killing frost.
   
   What I would recommend...
   
   Right now, raise your HOC up about 20% on everything you plan on spraying. Start off with pigments, applied every two weeks while the turf is still green and growing. For us that is the end of October, but for you, that could mean earlier. You can keep this up until your first killing frost, then switch to paints. One paint application will last you about six weeks, maybe longer. But, I am confident that no more than two apps should be needed. Then, again in the spring when your Bermuda starts to green back up, switch back to pigments until you feel comfortable with the growth you are seeing. We always add some fertility and minors in with each pigment spray.
   
   Be sure to include something that will kill off your returning rye in the first few tanks. We have found that MSM is cheap and effective.
   
   We spray 3-9 across the fairways with our pigment. With a paint, you may want to split the rate in half and go two directions.
   
   Next spring, get ready for some of the healthiest turf you have seen in years.
   
   I'd be happy to answer any more questions you may have. I have a ton of resources I have saved over the past four years that you may be interested in. Feel free to email me andy_jorgensen@otowfl.com. I always love it when I hear success stories about guys switching from overseed to paints and pigments. I think you could be one of them.

   
   
   
   
5. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   9/22/2014 1:09 PM

   This has me thinking, which of course is scary.
   
   What is the farthest north people are painting fairways?
   
   Are people doing varieties besides common?
   
   Hoping to hear some good dialogue.
   
   Thanks!
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
6. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/22/2014 1:09 PM

   Mel,
   
   I would think the line is somewhere around the area you are, where cool-season grasses begin to dominate the playing surfaces. But, you also have to keep in mind the expense of painting. Is the $12k-15k in paint going to have a ROI? Would painting in November allow enough play before snow settles in? Lots of questions....

   
   
   
   
7. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   9/22/2014 1:09 PM

   Andy Jorgensen said: Mel,
   
   I would think the line is somewhere around the area you are, where cool-season grasses begin to dominate the playing surfaces. But, you also have to keep in mind the expense of painting. Is the $12k-15k in paint going to have a ROI? Would painting in November allow enough play before snow settles in? Lots of questions....

   
   
   Holy crap that is at least half my fertilizer/chemical budget. Snow can be iffy sometimes, we have had at least if half our winters be without or with very little snow fall and open for play all winter long.
   
   But that health part is what got me intrigued.
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
8. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/22/2014 2:09 PM

   Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:

   Andy Jorgensen said: Mel,
   
   I would think the line is somewhere around the area you are, where cool-season grasses begin to dominate the playing surfaces. But, you also have to keep in mind the expense of painting. Is the $12k-15k in paint going to have a ROI? Would painting in November allow enough play before snow settles in? Lots of questions....

   
   
   Holy crap that is at least half my fertilizer/chemical budget. Snow can be iffy sometimes, we have had at least if half our winters be without or with very little snow fall and open for play all winter long.
   
   But that health part is what got me intrigued.
   
   Mel

   
   
   
   Paint is about the cost of seed, maybe a little less. What guys are finding out is the turf health actually reduces their expenses via other inputs - i.e. additional water, fertilizer, pest control, etc....for us, using pigments instead of seed has saved us roughly 50% overall and millions upon millions of gallons of water.

   
   
   
   
9. Melvin Waldron

   

   43 posts
   
   9/23/2014 7:09 AM

   Andy Jorgensen said:

   Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:

   Andy Jorgensen said: Mel,
   
   I would think the line is somewhere around the area you are, where cool-season grasses begin to dominate the playing surfaces. But, you also have to keep in mind the expense of painting. Is the $12k-15k in paint going to have a ROI? Would painting in November allow enough play before snow settles in? Lots of questions....

   
   
   Holy crap that is at least half my fertilizer/chemical budget. Snow can be iffy sometimes, we have had at least if half our winters be without or with very little snow fall and open for play all winter long.
   
   But that health part is what got me intrigued.
   
   Mel

   
   
   
   Paint is about the cost of seed, maybe a little less. What guys are finding out is the turf health actually reduces their expenses via other inputs - i.e. additional water, fertilizer, pest control, etc....for us, using pigments instead of seed has saved us roughly 50% overall and millions upon millions of gallons of water.

   
   
   Thanks, I can see that it would be an added cost for us since we do not overseed. I think we could benefit especially in the spring by it warming up the soil a little quicker, but I guess that would make us more susceptible for a late frost. Have to be careful trying to outsmart Mother Nature. But I can see the big benefit for you guys back in Florida.
   
   Mel

   
   Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO
   
   
10. Robert Wright

    

    0 posts
    
    9/24/2014 4:09 PM

    Andy Jorgensen said:

    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said:

    Andy Jorgensen said: Mel,
    
    I would think the line is somewhere around the area you are, where cool-season grasses begin to dominate the playing surfaces. But, you also have to keep in mind the expense of painting. Is the $12k-15k in paint going to have a ROI? Would painting in November allow enough play before snow settles in? Lots of questions....

    
    
    Holy crap that is at least half my fertilizer/chemical budget. Snow can be iffy sometimes, we have had at least if half our winters be without or with very little snow fall and open for play all winter long.
    
    But that health part is what got me intrigued.
    
    Mel

    
    
    
    Paint is about the cost of seed, maybe a little less. What guys are finding out is the turf health actually reduces their expenses via other inputs - i.e. additional water, fertilizer, pest control, etc....for us, using pigments instead of seed has saved us roughly 50% overall and millions upon millions of gallons of water.

    
    
    I'm in agreement with Andy. Thanks for those recommendations as well, that is pretty much the program I was thinking, about 6 apps of pigment, then over to paint about every 4 weeks. We aren't a fancy CC, just need something to look different. I planned on HOC going from .500 to .750 on fairways just to take some of the excessive wear. One main item we are looking at is water savings, plus the fact that some changes might take our pump stations and irrigation system out of play for 30-60 days. Ryegrass won't survive that long here unless it rains...which it rarely does. (our 2014 annual is 0.95" so far this year). Reduced water, reduced fuel, reduced labor hours on mowing is where we can expect to save.

    
    
    
    
11. Robert Wright

    

    0 posts
    
    9/24/2014 4:09 PM

    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: This has me thinking, which of course is scary.
    
    What is the farthest north people are painting fairways?
    
    Are people doing varieties besides common?
    
    Hoping to hear some good dialogue.
    
    Thanks!
    
    Mel

    
    
    Mel, there are a couple guys here in Vegas doing this program. Shadow Creek is doing it on new Tifway 2 fairways they install each summer (3-4 at a time). He sprayed Endurant. TPC Summerlin is coming up on their 4th year of painting what I think is 419 bermuda. They use a combo of Simplot products. Both reported an additional couple weeks of growth before and after winter, so an extra month of growing bermuda.

    
    
    
    
12. Robert Wright

    

    0 posts
    
    9/24/2014 4:09 PM

    Andy Jorgensen said: Thanks for the positive comments.
    
    Although most of my work is related to pigments, we have toyed around with paints to some degree. In your climate, I would think a combination of pigments and painting would work best.
    
    To answer your questions:
    
    1. Product you are using, rate, and frequency of application, plus equipment used.
    We use pigments, mid label rate. Bi-weekly using flat fan nozzles.
    
    2. Mowing height of turf before dormancy to insure best playability.
    Increased 20% from normal. For us, go from .500" to .600".
    
    3. Timing of initial application - before dormancy or after if using a pigment vs a paint.
    With pigment, before dormancy. For paint, after your first killing frost.
    
    What I would recommend...
    
    Right now, raise your HOC up about 20% on everything you plan on spraying. Start off with pigments, applied every two weeks while the turf is still green and growing. For us that is the end of October, but for you, that could mean earlier. You can keep this up until your first killing frost, then switch to paints. One paint application will last you about six weeks, maybe longer. But, I am confident that no more than two apps should be needed. Then, again in the spring when your Bermuda starts to green back up, switch back to pigments until you feel comfortable with the growth you are seeing. We always add some fertility and minors in with each pigment spray.
    
    Be sure to include something that will kill off your returning rye in the first few tanks. We have found that MSM is cheap and effective.
    
    We spray 3-9 across the fairways with our pigment. With a paint, you may want to split the rate in half and go two directions.
    
    Next spring, get ready for some of the healthiest turf you have seen in years.
    
    I'd be happy to answer any more questions you may have. I have a ton of resources I have saved over the past four years that you may be interested in. Feel free to email me andy_jorgensen@otowfl.com. I always love it when I hear success stories about guys switching from overseed to paints and pigments. I think you could be one of them.

    
    
    These are excellent recommendations Andy so I know you might be the colorant expert!! My other questions would be sprayer settings, currently we are at 50 gallons/AC, 2nd gear, full throttle, 45psi on a Toro Multipro 1250. I'll be sure to ask once our board either approves this proposal or goes a different direction.

    
    
    
    
13. Andy Jorgensen

    

    1 posts
    
    9/26/2014 2:09 PM

    We have one sprayer calibrated at 40gpa, 40psi. Another sprayer at 30gpa, 40 psi. Although both apply the same exact rate, we see a better response from the one at 30gpa.
    
    I posed this question to a researcher a few weeks back during a foliar fertility class I took. The response was the lower volume of water allows the product to adhere to the leaf surface better. The higher the volume and the product has a tendency to bounce or wash off the plant. I plan on recalibrating the 40gpa sprayer to a lower volume this winter and also including Border from Precision labs in the tank to help with coverage and reduce drift.

    
    
    
    
14. Lisa Wick

    

    1 posts
    
    10/22/2014 2:10 PM

    Just a quick note as one of my colleagues brought this thread to my attention. I learned quite a bit about colorants/pigments from a webcast the USGA did in April 2013. (You all will already know more than I, but there were some interesting things about spring green-up and labor savings.)
    
    You can find the recording on their video hub here:
    http://www.usga.org/videohub.aspx then use the navigation to >> Course Care >> Webcasts and Podcasts
    
    It was a little slow in responding so be patient - our friends at the Green Section have a lot of good recorded content there.
    Lisa Wick

    
    Lisa Wick, sr. manager, e-Learning Programs
    
    
15. Kevin Czerkies

    

    0 posts
    
    11/2/2014 4:11 PM

    What is the benefit to spraying 3-9 when using pigments?
    
    Kevin Czerkies CGCS
    Manatee Cove Golf Course

    
    
    
    
16. Jeremy Adkins

    

    0 posts
    
    11/2/2014 8:11 PM

    Kevin Czerkies, CGCS said: What is the benefit to spraying 3-9 when using pigments?
    
    Kevin Czerkies CGCS
    Manatee Cove Golf Course

    
    
    It helps conceal any overlaps or misses versus spraying 6-12, which the golfer can easily see from tee to green.

    
    
    
    
17. Andy Jorgensen

    

    1 posts
    
    11/3/2014 2:11 PM

    Jeremy Adkins said:

    Kevin Czerkies, CGCS said: What is the benefit to spraying 3-9 when using pigments?
    
    Kevin Czerkies CGCS
    Manatee Cove Golf Course

    
    
    It helps conceal any overlaps or misses versus spraying 6-12, which the golfer can easily see from tee to green.

    
    
    
    Exactly. The extra time it takes is negligible. I couldn't even tell you how much longer it takes to do this since this is the only way we spray. We can spray 38 acres of fairways, 3-9 in about 12 man hours.

    
    
    
    
18. Kevin Czerkies

    

    0 posts
    
    11/3/2014 3:11 PM

    Thanks for the info. I have ryegrass overseeded the past six years and the last two years my spring transition was poor. I feel it got to the point where I was hurting the Bermuda by overseeding. I saw a steady decline every year in turf quality. This year I'm going to go the "Liquid Overseed" route; pigment and liquid fertilizer. I'm excited and hope it's as good as billed.
    
    Kevin Czerkies CGCS
    Manatee Cove Golf Course
    Patrick AFB, FL

    
    
    
    
19. Keith Fellenstein

    

    0 posts
    
    11/7/2014 10:11 AM

    Those of you with Common Bermuda, wondering if you have any updates? I have Vamont Bermudagrass on one course which is very close to common in texture. Pigment and paint trials last year were disappointing. We have continued trials this year, but decided to include other varieties (Tifsport and Patriot) that we have on property. Initial response is much better on the finer leaf, denser varieties. I'm wondering if the Vamont is a lost cause because the density is insufficient?

    
    
    
    
20. Jeffrey Whitmire

    

    0 posts
    
    11/8/2014 7:11 AM

    Keith,
    
    Have you talked to Dan Taylor about painting? I played there at least 10 years ago when he painted his tees. I remembered they looked great. I think his tees were midiron back then so he may be able to offer some advice on using paint on the coarser type bermudagrasses.