Overseeding 419 Bermuda Grass Cancel The title field is required!

1. Stephen Moffitt

   

   0 posts
   
   9/19/2012 7:09 AM

   When overseeding 419 Bermuda grass Fwy's and Tee's I was wondering rate of seed is recommended per acre on Fwy's and Tee's . I am in Southwest Florida area and I understand there are many factors associated with overseeding and I do have experience with it, I am just wondering what others are doing. I am also looking for info on overseeding companies. Any recommendations?

   
   
   
   
2. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/19/2012 1:09 PM

   I wouldn't go any less than 300#/ac of a good perrennial Rye. We typically shoot for the 300-350# rate, but have gone as high as 600# before. In my opinion, the higher the rate, the more issues you'll have come spring.
   
   Southern Soils Turf Management now does seeding. Call Kevin - 321-229-1710.
   
   Also, if you can get out of overseeding, I'd recommend the "liquid overseed" program. Program consists of regular sprays of pigments, nitrogen and minors. We did this program last winter had nothing but great conditions. Because of this, we aren't overseeding 2 of our 3 courses this year.

   
   
   
   
3. Wallace Jeffrey V

   
   9/19/2012 7:09 PM

   Andy Jorgensen said: I wouldn't go any less than 300#/ac of a good perrennial Rye. We typically shoot for the 300-350# rate, but have gone as high as 600# before. In my opinion, the higher the rate, the more issues you'll have come spring.
   
   

   
   
   Andy,
   
   What issues in particular? The higher the rate of overseed you go down with, the weaker the plants will be, as they're fighting for the same space and nutrients. If you want your rye to go out quickly in the spring, go heavy. You go with a lighter rate, the plants are hardier, and it takes longer for the overseed to be overtaken by the bermudagrass coming out of dormancy.
   
   Depending on the zone, specific climate, and the varieties of rye someone chose to be a part of their blend, they may want that rye to hold on, because the bermudagrass (in a given historic example in a given area) may need more time to gear up. If the issue is that the rye will retreat too quickly, then yes, that would be an issue. In that scenario.
   
   I'm sure you know this, so I must be missing your point. Are there other specific issues that you're referencing? Just curious.....
   
   Jeff

   
   
   
   
4. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/20/2012 6:09 AM

   Andy Jorgensen said: I wouldn't go any less than 300#/ac of a good perrennial Rye. We typically shoot for the 300-350# rate, but have gone as high as 600# before. In my opinion, the higher the rate, the more issues you'll have come spring.
   
   

   
   

   Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:
   Andy,
   
   What issues in particular? The higher the rate of overseed you go down with, the weaker the plants will be, as they're fighting for the same space and nutrients. If you want your rye to go out quickly in the spring, go heavy. You go with a lighter rate, the plants are hardier, and it takes longer for the overseed to be overtaken by the bermudagrass coming out of dormancy.

   
   
   I agree with you in theory. More plants=less room for the plant to mature, more plants absorbing the nutrients making less available to the others, etc....however, I feel that when this route is taken, the Rye looks like crud. Thin, spindly leaf blades, no traffic tolerance, yellow appearance. The plant never really matures, shows signs of chlorosis, reduced aesthetic appearance, requires more water during hot, dry periods, etc. This is all from my personal experience and on-site seeding trials I have performed. Others may have success with it, but it doesn't meet our visual and playability expectations.
   
   

   Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:
   Depending on the zone, specific climate, and the varieties of rye someone chose to be a part of their blend, they may want that rye to hold on, because the bermudagrass (in a given historic example in a given area) may need more time to gear up. If the issue is that the rye will retreat too quickly, then yes, that would be an issue. In that scenario.
   
   I'm sure you know this, so I must be missing your point. Are there other specific issues that you're referencing? Just curious.....
   
   Jeff

   
   
   I've also noticed that the varieties of Perennial Rye that are marketed to this area are heat tolerant. Some other varieties contain intermediate or annual Rye that will transition better, but offer other issues in regards to plant texture, color, growth rate and lack of a dwarf characteristic. Spring transition in our area is achieved through additional fertility, which is often applied during weather periods that are sufficient for both the Rye and emerging Bermudagrass. Since the Rye has had a foothold for the past few months, the Rye usually out competes the Bermudagrass, shading it, and causing the transition issues mentioned above. I guess it is a matter of personal preference and what are your winter color expectations. We like the deep, dark green, striped up look. For us, that means the 300-350# rate.

   
   
   
   
5. Neidhardt John J

   
   9/20/2012 9:09 AM

   Here on a Coastal Georgia barrier island I bounce around between 425 lb and 475 lb per acre. We have heavy play during the winter. We will be overseeding Fairways and Tees at 425 lb an acre this year due to increase of seed cost. Greens with Poa Triv at 20 lb per 1000ft2 in split apps.

   
   
   
   
6. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/20/2012 5:09 PM

   Another thought, after re-reading my original two posts. How frequent can you water during the germination period? Are you closed for a lengthy period of time, where you can water consistently and frequently and obtain close to 100% germination? Or do you open back up for play and can only water "when you can" between groups and at night?
   
   For us, we close for 7 days. Water, water and water. Then re-open, keep it on the cart path, and water at least 3-4 more times during the day. We get great germination, and is probably why the 300-350# seeding rate works excellently for us.
   
   I know of many courses that only shut down the 1st tee for about an hour in the morning to seed. Spreaders staying ahead of play. These Superintendents can't water as required, and therefore go at a much higher rate and "what comes up, comes up". I'd suspect a 50% germination and establishment, and in order to achieve desired results, a higher rate needs to be used.
   
   Likewise, can you get away with raising up heights to encourage establishment? Or, are you required to keep the course conditions, and heights, the same during the overseeding process? How much do you lose by cutting too short the first few mowings?
   
   A lot to consider. Hopefully more chime in, and Jeffy will comment with his opinion on the above.

   
   
   
   
7. Wahlin Scott B

   
   9/20/2012 7:09 PM

   I have been able to close and syringe new seed, and had to stay open and only water at night. It worked out well both ways. I can imagine that this may be different in a higher elevation with windier conditions. Now I only seed greens with Poa trivialis and do not syringe during the day. We go at 4#/M and that seems to be a little heavy. My Bermuda does not go dormant, so I grow whatever the weather favors.

   
   
   
   
8. Wallace Jeffrey V

   
   9/20/2012 7:09 PM

   Andy,
   
   First of all, it's not a "theory". No more than a dog needs water. "Well, in theory you're correct.". No. A dog needs water. That's a "fact!" And that is as far as I will go with that.
   
   I will grant you that it has been "several" years since I have personally overseeded an entire course. The rest have been intermittent trips to consult while a course was overseeding. My "full-time" experience, that is obviously outdated, has been in Arizona with either 419 or "common" bermudagrass. We would take the bermuda down to where soil was visible, before overseeding, as it needed seed to soil contact. I have to admit that your rate of 350 lbs. per acre is a rate I never would have considered in the Arizona desert. Okay, you have new varieties that I am unfamiliar with.
   
   Before I go on, my intention was to let anyone new to overseeding, and with bermudagrass, to research the rates and look at the effect it would have on the bermuda when coming out of transition in the spring. There are reams of data showing the effects of ryegrass, planted in different lbs./m, of the tillering. And how the numbers of tillers would increase or decrease depending on the number of plants. I have never overseeded at a lower rate than 450 lbs/acre. That was the low rate. There is a balance needed. I used a 500 lb. rate. Someone could go up to 700 lbs./acre and be fine. But a simple jump to 800 lbs. could totally throw off the equation.
   
   Remember that I did qualify my post as a determination between locations......to make it simple, and to qualify my post. I would be interested as to your type of bermuda, the number of months that you had the overseed required, and the temps you were facing when trying to transition.
   
   I would hope that anyone involved in the process of introducing another species, due to their requirements to have "green" continue throughout their entire year, research the effects that that will have on their base species.
   
   I will willingly agree that you have found out what works best for your courses, in your particular location. Again, while I am surprised at your rate, it apparently works for you.
   
   As to your question as to how much time did we have to shut down, the answer is 0 minutes. While the members were aware of what we were doing, and were understanding, I had a first tee starter than had somehow gotten hold of a head key, and would shut off the head next to that tee, because he was getting wet for six minutes every hour. After I took a five iron to him and beat him senseless, he gave up his head key. And was bordering on being fired, until I convinced the GM to give him one more chance. Or at least until the bleeding stopped. The GM agreed that blood trailing across the parking lot would not be attractive.
   
   In our case, once we were certain that the bermuda had in fact gone completely dormant, we then brought out the spray rig and applied glyphosate in a nice line around our fairways, and other areas, to kill off any rye that had been thrown outside the areas we wanted. So, we had a winter of tightly defined fairways, tees, and green surrounds. The greens were bentgrass. Don't laugh. I inherited a golf course with common bermudagrass next to bent.
   
   Andy, you're right.....in your area, and in your climate. And I am right, I hope, in causing others to do some research for "their" areas.
   
   And it's not "Jeffy. It's "Jeffie". At least according to 75 other posts. Or Mister. Wait.......that's Pet's name for me. My bad.

   
   
   
   
9. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   9/21/2012 5:09 AM

   Jeff,
   
   I do agree with you that a rate of 350#/ac would not suffice in the desert Southwest. But, you never mentioned where your experience was from. The original post asked about overseeding in Southwest Florida. That's why I chimed in. I wouldn't have if it asked about overseeding in Arizona, something I know nothing about, with the exception of knowing that much more intensive preparation and higher seeding rates are used. And all that I gained from talking to one of the local grass farmers during a visit out there one winter.
   
   Our winters are mild. Highs average around low to mid 70's with low's dipping into the 40 degree range. We get on average about 10 frost days here. Some years more, and some years less. Last year we had three total frost days. I think you and I can both agree that that is a far cry from the desert Southwest where it frosts at 4:00 once the sun ducks behind the Mountains.
   
   Either way, the moral of the story is ask for as much information as possible, come to your own conclusions, and then rely on your experience to make it happen.
   
   I hope you take the time to read the attached article from a study performed back in the late 90's. Although it concludes that more is not better, I do concede that your rate of 500#/ac was justifiable based on this research. But, you'd also have to accept about a 30% increase in your seed budget, compared to mine, to do so.

   
   
   
   
10. Wallace Jeffrey V

    
    9/21/2012 10:09 AM

    Dave Kopec? He's an idiot! He's only been working at the Univ. of Arizona for nearly 30 years and probably knows more about grass than God. And he's no lightweight at the bar, either.
    
    Okay, Dave smacked me upside the head a few times. That's a great report. Thanks.