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Greens liner

10 posts
  1. Keith Pegg
    Keith Pegg avatar
    0 posts
    3/6/2012 3:03 PM
    My Director of Golf went to the PGA show and one of the classes or seminars he attended, they were told to have the "grounds staff" remove all greens liners on sand greens as they were a major problem with sand based greens today. This goes against everything I have ever learned in 40 years of experience with sand/USGA greens. If anyone can send me a comment on who gave this talk I would like to contact him, to find out more details on what was said and why.
    I have built (supervised the construction) of over 200 greens and back in the 70's did build some without a plastic ring (I was an Assistant at that time) and had a number of problems with dry edges on the sand and wet spots in the fringe. I would bet that these have been added if the greens are still even still there.
    I welcome any and all comments on this subject.
    Keith Pegg
    Zama Golf Japan :shock:



  2. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    3/6/2012 11:03 PM
    Keith Pegg said: My Director of Golf went to the PGA show and one of the classes or seminars he attended, they were told to have the "grounds staff" remove all greens liners on sand greens as they were a major problem with sand based greens today. This goes against everything I have ever learned in 40 years of experience with sand/USGA greens. If anyone can send me a comment on who gave this talk I would like to contact him, to find out more details on what was said and why.
    I have built (supervised the construction) of over 200 greens and back in the 70's did build some without a plastic ring (I was an Assistant at that time) and had a number of problems with dry edges on the sand and wet spots in the fringe. I would bet that these have been added if the greens are still even still there.
    I welcome any and all comments on this subject.
    Keith Pegg
    Zama Golf Japan :shock:


    Keith,

    I "hope" this speaker explained his comments. A liner is installed to prevent wicking from the sand root zone into the, I'm assuming, tighter outside soil. There is NO other purpose for it. It does NOT prevent encroachment from other grass species. It DOES prevent the pulling of moisture from a coarser zone into a tighter zone. Admittedly, I have built courses that were pure sand, wall to wall. In that case, the characteristics of the profiles defined my decisions on the need for a liner....or barrier.

    Even with the barrier, problems with dry putting surfaces occur because of construction procedures. The greens are rolled to settle the root zone. Unfortunately, some operators tend to come up close to the edge, then back off, thinking that they have settled the entire putting surface. It's this last half meter or so that doesn't get the same compaction, or settling, that the rest of the putting surface receives. Water settles, but mechanical settling is needed as well.

    This is a common mistake that I have seen on hundreds, and hundreds of greens. They're attempting to be careful at the perimeter, but the result is a different profile. A softer profile around the perimeter obviously changes the infiltration and percolation rate. I understand the "caution", but the entire root zone needs to be equal in compression, or you have two different profiles.

    I do not understand his comment about liners being a major problem with sand based greens. Whether it is sand to sand, or sand to clay, how can a "problem" be caused? If the particle size of the green root zone is close to, or even identical to, the core surrounds, then money may have been wasted on the liner. That would be the only problem...period. But that is rarely the case. Advocating "ripping out" the barrier is an absurd proposal. It's installed! Leave it.

    If the architect, or contractor, realizes in advance that the both materials are almost identical, then the barrier can be eliminated. But removing it after the fact? A complete waste of labor, time, and the resulting cost.

    Again....ensuring that the ENTIRE putting surface is compacted, or settled equally, will eliminate the problems of dry putting surface edges, and wet surrounds. I have no idea who this speaker was, but an explanation of soil properties should have been included in his presentation.

    That may have been a too complex explanation that would not have been understood by certain people in management, but it should have been given. That now gives you the opportunity to decipher the language.

    I have no doubt you have the ability to do just that.



  3. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    3/7/2012 10:03 AM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said:
    Keith Pegg said: My Director of Golf went to the PGA show and one of the classes or seminars he attended, they were told to have the "grounds staff" remove all greens liners on sand greens as they were a major problem with sand based greens today. This goes against everything I have ever learned in 40 years of experience with sand/USGA greens. If anyone can send me a comment on who gave this talk I would like to contact him, to find out more details on what was said and why.
    I have built (supervised the construction) of over 200 greens and back in the 70's did build some without a plastic ring (I was an Assistant at that time) and had a number of problems with dry edges on the sand and wet spots in the fringe. I would bet that these have been added if the greens are still even still there.
    I welcome any and all comments on this subject.
    Keith Pegg
    Zama Golf Japan :shock:


    Keith,

    I "hope" this speaker explained his comments. A liner is installed to prevent wicking from the sand root zone into the, I'm assuming, tighter outside soil. There is NO other purpose for it. It does NOT prevent encroachment from other grass species. It DOES prevent the pulling of moisture from a coarser zone into a tighter zone. Admittedly, I have built courses that were pure sand, wall to wall. In that case, the characteristics of the profiles defined my decisions on the need for a liner....or barrier.

    Even with the barrier, problems with dry putting surfaces occur because of construction procedures. The greens are rolled to settle the root zone. Unfortunately, some operators tend to come up close to the edge, then back off, thinking that they have settled the entire putting surface. It's this last half meter or so that doesn't get the same compaction, or settling, that the rest of the putting surface receives. Water settles, but mechanical settling is needed as well.

    This is a common mistake that I have seen on hundreds, and hundreds of greens. They're attempting to be careful at the perimeter, but the result is a different profile. A softer profile around the perimeter obviously changes the infiltration and percolation rate. I understand the "caution", but the entire root zone needs to be equal in compression, or you have two different profiles.

    I do not understand his comment about liners being a major problem with sand based greens. Whether it is sand to sand, or sand to clay, how can a "problem" be caused? If the particle size of the green root zone is close to, or even identical to, the core surrounds, then money may have been wasted on the liner. That would be the only problem...period. But that is rarely the case. Advocating "ripping out" the barrier is an absurd proposal. It's installed! Leave it.

    If the architect, or contractor, realizes in advance that the both materials are almost identical, then the barrier can be eliminated. But removing it after the fact? A complete waste of labor, time, and the resulting cost.

    Again....ensuring that the ENTIRE putting surface is compacted, or settled equally, will eliminate the problems of dry putting surface edges, and wet surrounds. I have no idea who this speaker was, but an explanation of soil properties should have been included in his presentation.

    That may have been a too complex explanation that would not have been understood by certain people in management, but it should have been given. That now gives you the opportunity to decipher the language.

    I have no doubt you have the ability to do just that.


    Hi Jeff, I suspect that the information Keith got may have come from the following seminar which I noticed you had taken as a webinar. Member-849-Sending it Down the Drain-Drainage Details
    It is available on Webinars on Demand on this site
    The instructor did speak about situations where removing the liner could help but I don't think it was a problem for all greens, just greens where toxic gasses built up. They also gave a sumping solution to venting your drain lines that would help over come the problem



  4. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    3/7/2012 12:03 PM
    Larry,

    Say WHAT? How does anything "build up" under a vertical liner? Unless I misunderstood Keith's post, and he has a fabric liner under his entire root zone, although that would have no bearing on "dry perimeters".



  5. Patrick Reinhardt
    Patrick Reinhardt avatar
    0 posts
    3/7/2012 12:03 PM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said: Again....ensuring that the ENTIRE putting surface is compacted, or settled equally, will eliminate the problems of dry putting surface edges, and wet surrounds.


    Not necessarily. At my last course, we had liners around the greens, and during construction we ran vibratory plate tamps over the entire surface 3-4 times. We still dealt with collars that dried out very quickly. This was growing bent greens/collars with 419 approaches, tie-ins, and surrounds. This was usually the case with most courses that I knew of, and it was always attributed to the 419 drawing the moisture from the collar and causing the bent to wilt, even with the liners in place.

    My questions is, why are they teaching drainage at the PGA show? Does the GCSAA now offer club fitting, shirt folding, and shelf dusting in it's list of classes? I seemed to have missed those offerings....



  6. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    3/7/2012 12:03 PM
    http://www2.gcsaa.org/ni/webcast/ondema ... basics.zip

    Keith and Jeff, if you fast forward to roughly the 1 hour 12 minute point of the webinar they talk about removing the barrier
    And Jeff, you did attend according to the video but it may not have caught your attention since it was a very short section
    Hope this helps



  7. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    3/7/2012 1:03 PM
    Larry Allan said: http://www2.gcsaa.org/ni/webcast/ondemand/drainage_basics.zip

    Keith and Jeff, if you fast forward to roughly the 1 hour 12 minute point of the webinar they talk about removing the barrier
    And Jeff, you did attend according to the video but it may not have caught your attention since it was a very short section
    Hope this helps


    Hey Larry,

    Just opened it. Thanks. I do remember the seminar. The situation he's describing is a construction problem, not a barrier problem. Two things in his talk stand out......the core base was not draining away from the edge, towards a drain line as it should, and even if it was, the drainage wasn't performing correctly. Obviously, we need to ensure that water is moving laterally to the the drain tiles....and that it is then moving through that drain to the exit point and away from the green into either a tie-in to a fairway drain complex, or into a sufficiently sized sump.

    Yes, I can see toxic gases being built up.....in "his" scenario. But, that hardly justifies removing all barriers from all greens. Opening up your entire perimeter profile to wicking is not the answer. The drainage issue needs to be corrected.

    Again, thanks for the zip file.

    Cheers....



  8. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    3/7/2012 1:03 PM
    Patrick Reinhardt said:
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said: Again....ensuring that the ENTIRE putting surface is compacted, or settled equally, will eliminate the problems of dry putting surface edges, and wet surrounds.


    Not necessarily. At my last course, we had liners around the greens, and during construction we ran vibratory plate tamps over the entire surface 3-4 times. We still dealt with collars that dried out very quickly. This was growing bent greens/collars with 419 approaches, tie-ins, and surrounds. This was usually the case with most courses that I knew of, and it was always attributed to the 419 drawing the moisture from the collar and causing the bent to wilt, even with the liners in place.

    My questions is, why are they teaching drainage at the PGA show? Does the GCSAA now offer club fitting, shirt folding, and shelf dusting in it's list of classes? I seemed to have missed those offerings....


    Patrick,

    You are correct. I should have written, "will help with", instead of "eliminate". There will always be some wicking, but it doesn't need to cause a problem around the entire putting surface. Planting whatever species you have on the putting surface out to a meter past the green height helps, as does actually building your core large enough to have your collar "inside" the core cut. We'll always have to live with some areas that have dry edges, when dealing with different soils.

    I've been very lucky on two courses. Almost identical soils, "sand", in both my root zones and the rest of the course. And.....utilizing the same grass species throughout the course. Those were rare, but if dealing with hard-cut USGA profiles within a clay surround, then the barrier certainly makes a difference.

    Every construction project is different, I was simply addressing the benefits of a barrier, and not expending the money to remove something that was already installed. Something that certainly was not "contributing" to the problem.



  9. Keith Pegg
    Keith Pegg avatar
    0 posts
    3/7/2012 3:03 PM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said: Larry,

    Say WHAT? How does anything "build up" under a vertical liner? Unless I misunderstood Keith's post, and he has a fabric liner under his entire root zone, although that would have no bearing on "dry perimeters".


    First, Thank you all for the help, and if I was not clear we only have a vertical liner, I have never used a fabric liner under the green.
    I will watch the talk today that was sent, I agree what are Pro's doing drainage, I want a seminar on pro shop operations and shoe sales. (for the new job at walmart maybe).

    Keith :mrgreen:



  10. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    3/7/2012 7:03 PM
    Keith Pegg said:
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said: Larry,

    Say WHAT? How does anything "build up" under a vertical liner? Unless I misunderstood Keith's post, and he has a fabric liner under his entire root zone, although that would have no bearing on "dry perimeters".


    First, Thank you all for the help, and if I was not clear we only have a vertical liner, I have never used a fabric liner under the green.
    I will watch the talk today that was sent, I agree what are Pro's doing drainage, I want a seminar on pro shop operations and shoe sales. (for the new job at walmart maybe).

    Keith :mrgreen:


    Keith,

    Look at this (your pro attending the "greens keeper" seminar) as a glass-half-full proposition. Now your pro can help rake bunkers, weed whip fence lines, push mow around lakes and bunker edges, grind reels...



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