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Do Greens need to be Aerified?

36 posts
  1. Jonathan Burke
    Jonathan Burke avatar
    2 posts
    2/17/2017 6:02 PM
    Please read the attached article.

    The attached article was brought to my attention by my General Manager. The article can be found in the January/February issue of The Boardroom, a publication for private club directors.

    In my experience I never met a Superintendent or GM who destroyed greens for "the sheer enjoyment"

    I would be playing Russian roulette with my job security if I didn't aerify.

    Mr. Doherty states "we are dealing with only two things –solids and pore spac". As a Superintendent I deal with more than two things. Height of cut, shade, temperature, Ph, soil texture, bicarbonates, soil nutrients, nematodes, pythium , drainage are some of the factors I manage to keep roots alive. Is this lack of knowledge, or am I wasting resources?

    For the 2017 season my grounds committee and BOD approved to core aerify greens twice, graden sand inject once with solid tine aeration , vertidrain, and drill and fill. I hope this achieves the ISTRC recommendation of 15 to 20% annual surface area displacement.

    I value my fellow GCSAA member's feedback.

    Jonathan Burke
    Golf Course Superintendent
    The Hartford Golf Club



  2. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    2/17/2017 6:02 PM
    Having worked on seven golf courses in my career, I would say some greens do and some greens don't.



  3. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    2/17/2017 7:02 PM
    Porosity and gas exchange are just part of the equation. There is value in growing new young plants in order to benefit from the vigor of a new plant.
    It's easy to sit in a classroom, lab or boardroom and pontificate on the value of a cultural practice when your job isn't on the line. Is there a reason that farmers cultivate a field crop? We need to cultivate the soil, too and a core aerifier is the only way that gets done.

    Regards,

    Steve



  4. Stephen Ravenkamp
    Stephen Ravenkamp avatar
    1 posts
    2/18/2017 7:02 AM
    I met Dave many years ago when ISTRC was just getting off the ground. I have never heard him advocate against aeration. I don't think this article is saying NOT to aerate, but I do see how it can be interpreted that way - particularly by those that don't understand soil science. When I read the article carefully it seems to me that Dave is saying the superintendents need to be able to explain WHY it is necessary to aerate greens. Being able to explain to the naysayers that roots need pore space to grow and that aeration recovers the pore space that decreases over time just MIGHT quiet some of the negative voices. My concern, though, is if superintendents can misinterpret the message that the article may do us more harm than good.



  5. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    2/19/2017 5:02 PM
    Steve,

    It seems to me that the author is advocating against aeration.

    He cites a single conversation with a single superintendent who can't answer how much oxygen roots need, then reaches the conclusion: "Wow, what a waste of resources", referring to aeration.



  6. Grant Rosenfelder
    Grant Rosenfelder avatar
    6 posts
    2/20/2017 8:02 AM
    That's a pretty good article, once you get past the opening paragraph...To me, he is trying to help Superintendents answer questions from golfers in a more scientific and knowledgeable way, or at least be able to tell them why we do these practices instead of "That's the way it has always been done..." Most of the time when golfers ask and they get an educated answer, they understand and support what is taking place.



  7. Steve Nelson
    Steve Nelson avatar
    0 posts
    2/20/2017 8:02 AM
    I read the article and it seems to me a pretty straight forward vendor authored article. There's a bold statement that grabs your attention. A theory that superintendents don't really know the why of aerifying and the potential money is being wasted as a result. An implied claim that his company can provide the rock solid science to make sure that the aerification is done correctly. Take it for what it is.



  8. Curtis Nickerson
    Curtis Nickerson avatar
    0 posts
    2/20/2017 8:02 AM
    I am very disappointed in this article and the way he paints the superintendent, His choice of words are poor at best. Clearly he is trying to sell a service a service that I am very unlikely to use again... I have used them several times in the past, but will search elsewhere moving forward.



  9. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    2/20/2017 11:02 AM
    Jonathan Burke said: Please read the attached article.

    For the 2017 season my grounds committee and BOD approved to core aerify greens twice, graden sand inject once with solid tine aeration , vertidrain, and drill and fill. I hope this achieves the ISTRC recommendation of 15 to 20% annual surface area displacement.

    The Hartford Golf Club



    Jonathan-

    Not to be disrespectful or rude, but this statement illustrates the point he is making in the article. How did you choose these practices? How did you arrive at the decision about which of these practices to implement, and when? The point Dave makes, and I agree that this article sucks given the audience, is that these decisions should be made based on information and science, the information he happens to sell in the form of soils physical properties tests. You state that you "hope" that your program achieves 15-20% points out what the author is pointing out in the beginning. In my opinion, setting the goals of your agronomic program based on science and info, and knowing that your aerification program achieves your goals rather than hoping that it achieves them is a more responsible way to operate.



  10. Keith Fellenstein
    Keith Fellenstein avatar
    0 posts
    2/20/2017 11:02 AM
    I'm assuming this is a poorly articulated argument where the intention was lost immediately in the attention grabbing , but misleading title of the article. I too was disappointed to see the source. ISTRC had been a valuable tool in helping me decide the best program going forward based on hard core scientific data and then communicate that to the powers. I'll have to re-evaluate using ISTRC. One point that is valuable, although not to the target audience of the publication that carried this article, is that there are many different techniques that address different issues. Its not a one-size fits all. Good turf managers need to match the best process to meet the objective.



  11. Jonathan Burke
    Jonathan Burke avatar
    2 posts
    2/20/2017 1:02 PM
    James Schmid said:
    Jonathan Burke said: Please read the attached article.

    For the 2017 season my grounds committee and BOD approved to core aerify greens twice, graden sand inject once with solid tine aeration , vertidrain, and drill and fill. I hope this achieves the ISTRC recommendation of 15 to 20% annual surface area displacement.

    The Hartford Golf Club



    Jonathan-

    Not to be disrespectful or rude, but this statement illustrates the point he is making in the article. How did you choose these practices? How did you arrive at the decision about which of these practices to implement, and when? The point Dave makes, and I agree that this article sucks given the audience, is that these decisions should be made based on information and science, the information he happens to sell in the form of soils physical properties tests. You state that you "hope" that your program achieves 15-20% points out what the author is pointing out in the beginning. In my opinion, setting the goals of your agronomic program based on science and info, and knowing that your aerification program achieves your goals rather than hoping that it achieves them is a more responsible way to operate.



    James-
    No disrespect taken. I get your point. My "hope" comment was sarcastic. I thought it was contradictory that the author describes aeration as " Russian roulette...twice a year" while ISTRC recomends at least 15-20% surface displacement annually. I know exactly how much my aeration schedule will displace. It is not from any "lack of knowledge".

    The purpose of my post was not to debate the merits of aeration. I was disappointed that the author would promote his services by portraying Superintendents negatively. Describing the challenges we face and the benefits of his product might me more effective than the unflattering story about his past Superintendent.

    This is just my opinion. Was curious if others agree.

    Jon



  12. Doherty David L
    Doherty David L avatar
    2/20/2017 4:02 PM
    I feel the need to clarify the recent "Do Greens Need to be Aerified?" article that was published in the Jan/Feb Boardroom issue. Due to health issues, Dave was unable to write a current article for the publication and this was a late 1990s article that they decided to republish. This explains the 1991 and 1995 references. Make no mistake, the article is poorly written, poorly edited and should be re-titled "How to Quantify the Need for Aerification?" You are right that things have changed since this article was originally written and some of the biggest advancements are the knowledge of the superintendents and the outside resources that they have to utilize for their support. Sometimes the hardest part of a superintendents job is quantifying what he/she wants or needs to do. The idea is to support the decisions with facts and proactive approaches, regardless of the outside sources used. We apologize for any confusion or hard feelings that this article has caused.



  13. Jonathan Burke
    Jonathan Burke avatar
    2 posts
    2/20/2017 4:02 PM
    David L Doherty"]I feel the need to clarify the recent "Do Greens Need to be Aerified?" article that was published in the Jan/Feb Boardroom issue. Due to health issues, Dave was unable to write a current article for the publication and this was a late 1990s article that they decided to republish. This explains the 1991 and 1995 references. Make no mistake, the article is poorly written, poorly edited and should be re-titled "How to Quantify the Need for Aerification?" You are right that things have changed since this article was originally written and some of the biggest advancements are the knowledge of the superintendents and the outside resources that they have to utilize for their support. Sometimes the hardest part of a superintendents job is quantifying what he/she wants or needs to do. The idea is to support the decisions with facts and proactive approaches, regardless of the outside sources used. We apologize for any confusion or hard feelings that this article has caused.[/quot

    Thank you for your response. Maybe Boardroom will allow you to clarify in the next issue. Best of luck to Dave with his health issues. Jon



  14. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    2/21/2017 1:02 PM
    David L Doherty said: I feel the need to clarify the recent "Do Greens Need to be Aerified?" article that was published in the Jan/Feb Boardroom issue. Due to health issues, Dave was unable to write a current article for the publication and this was a late 1990s article that they decided to republish. This explains the 1991 and 1995 references. Make no mistake, the article is poorly written, poorly edited and should be re-titled "How to Quantify the Need for Aerification?" You are right that things have changed since this article was originally written and some of the biggest advancements are the knowledge of the superintendents and the outside resources that they have to utilize for their support. Sometimes the hardest part of a superintendents job is quantifying what he/she wants or needs to do. The idea is to support the decisions with facts and proactive approaches, regardless of the outside sources used. We apologize for any confusion or hard feelings that this article has caused.



    Who is "I" then if "I" isn't Dave?

    Anyway, what an arrogant, b.s. article. Even if it was written in the 1990's it comes across as gospel and yet, shortly thereafter, Gaussoin along with Rossi come out with their own research which basically, at a minimum, makes a reevaluation of the ISTRC research warranted. So who is right? No wonder the superintendent didn't have a hard and fast, quantifiable answer to Dave's spur of the moment interrogation.

    Some things cannot be quantified. There are far too many variables involved.

    Is a retraction going to come out? The problem is you cannot undue this mistake. Any golfer with an ax to grind has found his "proof".



  15. Alan Fitzgerald
    Alan Fitzgerald avatar
    0 posts
    2/21/2017 2:02 PM
    Ronald Conard, CGCS said:
    David L Doherty said: I feel the need to clarify the recent "Do Greens Need to be Aerified?" article that was published in the Jan/Feb Boardroom issue. Due to health issues, Dave was unable to write a current article for the publication and this was a late 1990s article that they decided to republish. This explains the 1991 and 1995 references. Make no mistake, the article is poorly written, poorly edited and should be re-titled "How to Quantify the Need for Aerification?" You are right that things have changed since this article was originally written and some of the biggest advancements are the knowledge of the superintendents and the outside resources that they have to utilize for their support. Sometimes the hardest part of a superintendents job is quantifying what he/she wants or needs to do. The idea is to support the decisions with facts and proactive approaches, regardless of the outside sources used. We apologize for any confusion or hard feelings that this article has caused.



    Who is "I" then if "I" isn't Dave?
    ".


    Daves son Eric posted the same thing on turfnet, I'm assuming that he logged in here under Daves name.

    I've known Dave for a long time and know that he would never drop a super under the bus. I've heard this story from him numerous times as it's how ISTRC started - i.e. He was a member who was asking a super those questions and forming those opinions as a member would. Once he realized there was a need and a market for physical soil analysis he started the research and the company. If you read the first few paragraphs in that context it makes more sense.



  16. Christopher Flynn
    Christopher Flynn avatar
    0 posts
    2/21/2017 7:02 PM
    I can understand the critiques given here based on how the article may come across to some. I will say that I have known and worked with Dave for many years and I honestly can't speak highly enough of him. I personally know of several instances where Dave was brought in by Greens Committees due to poor greens conditions and he was the Superintendents biggest advocate. If anything - his work has saved many a Superintendent their job.



  17. Michael Rogers
    Michael Rogers avatar
    2 posts
    2/22/2017 2:02 AM
    Hello,

    The Gausson experiment was done by a grad student. I believe there was an area with just solid tining, an area with hollow-tining and a no tining area ( probably bunging on urea or sulfate of ammonia or whatever anyone gives them for free, which was a reply I got from our favorite Elvis Impersonator who is also in this group ). Verticutting and topdressing did not come into the equation.

    They found little difference between the solid and hollow areas in organic matter reduction. It was a very limited experiment to put an end to hollow tining.

    I call these two professors plus their Asian counterpart Talk Radio Agronomists, always looking for headlines and speaking engagements. Their protocols in my opinion are frequently flawed lacking common sense and loaded with sensationalism.

    They may even use Twitter more than President Trump.

    Have a good one Michael

    Marbella Golf Country Club Costa del Sol Spain



  18. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    2/22/2017 7:02 AM
    Michael Rogers said:

    ....... They may even use Twitter more than President Trump.


    Make Turf Great Again



  19. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    2/22/2017 10:02 AM
    Peter Bowman, CGCS said:
    Michael Rogers said:

    ....... They may even use Twitter more than President Trump.


    Make Turf Great Again


    Alternative aerification facts



  20. Keith Fellenstein
    Keith Fellenstein avatar
    0 posts
    2/22/2017 10:02 AM
    Christopher Flynn, CGCS said: I can understand the critiques given here based on how the article may come across to some. I will say that I have known and worked with Dave for many years and I honestly can't speak highly enough of him. I personally know of several instances where Dave was brought in by Greens Committees due to poor greens conditions and he was the Superintendents biggest advocate. If anything - his work has saved many a Superintendent their job.


    I understand your defense of Dave, but for those of us that don't know him personally, this article was so poorly written, it not only fans the flames, but also fuels those that don't understand what the Superintendent does and questions our every move (including uninformed GM's). The article does throw the Superintendent under the bus and by association, all of us. Dave may regret the reprint, but 1990 or today it is insulting. It is his words and he needs to own it. The intention may have been otherwise and finer points lost in the execution, but the harm was done (again) regardless. Thanks Dave for stirring the pot, and thanks Eric for the (almost) apology.



  21. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    2/22/2017 1:02 PM
    Michael Rogers said: Hello,

    The Gausson experiment was done by a grad student. I believe there was an area with just solid tining, an area with hollow-tining and a no tining area ( probably bunging on urea or sulfate of ammonia or whatever anyone gives them for free, which was a reply I got from our favorite Elvis Impersonator who is also in this group ). Verticutting and topdressing did not come into the equation.

    They found little difference between the solid and hollow areas in organic matter reduction. It was a very limited experiment to put an end to hollow tining.

    I call these two professors plus their Asian counterpart Talk Radio Agronomists, always looking for headlines and speaking engagements. Their protocols in my opinion are frequently flawed lacking common sense and loaded with sensationalism.

    They may even use Twitter more than President Trump.

    Have a good one Michael

    Marbella Golf Country Club Costa del Sol Spain


    There are so many unfounded allegations in this post that it really doesn't warrant a reply but..... Are you saying Dr. Gaussoin (and whoever else you are referring to) set out on his study with a campaign to eliminate hollow core aeration? Or is it possible the results speak for themselves and there really is no ulterior motive?



  22. Michael Rogers
    Michael Rogers avatar
    2 posts
    2/23/2017 12:02 AM
    Ron,

    Better to read rather than reply. Go to Univ Neb website, see what was done. It was a grad student doing his thesis or something similar.

    Micah Woods spends so much time on Twitter I and an associate the day before yesterday were remarking how does he find time to work.

    My GM has not allowed us to hollow tine for over 5 years. My OM has been reduced during this period from 3,5% to 1.5% on my microbial program. I did a lake treatment Monday in Mallorca to remove 3000 cubic meters of organic sediment, the result of 25 years of effluent with very high suspended solids.

    If I had wanted to test the efficacy of solid vs hollow, I would of had a mid end maintenance regime with primo etc, some micros,verticutting and topdressing not just a couple of plots with a simple nitrogen source and nothing else. And if were Dr. Gauisson, I would have done it myself if I had wanted to start such a controversy and create headlines to fill auditoriums. His aforementioned colleagues do exactly the same. I have learned more from working with 400 golf superintendents during 25 years in the field than you could in 25 years of the GIS seminars.

    Un saludo Michael



  23. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    2/23/2017 1:02 AM
    Michael Rogers said: Ron,

    Better to read rather than reply. Go to Univ Neb website, see what was done. It was a grad student doing his thesis or something similar.

    Micah Woods spends so much time on Twitter I and an associate the day before yesterday were remarking how does he find time to work.

    My GM has not allowed us to hollow tine for over 5 years. My OM has been reduced during this period from 3,5% to 1.5% on my microbial program. I did a lake treatment Monday in Mallorca to remove 3000 cubic meters of organic sediment, the result of 25 years of effluent with very high suspended solids.

    If I had wanted to test the efficacy of solid vs hollow, I would of had a mid end maintenance regime with primo etc, some micros,verticutting and topdressing not just a couple of plots with a simple nitrogen source and nothing else. And if were Dr. Gauisson, I would have done it myself if I had wanted to start such a controversy and create headlines to fill auditoriums. His aforementioned colleagues do exactly the same. I have learned more from working with 400 golf superintendents during 25 years in the field than you could in 25 years of the GIS seminars.

    Un saludo Michael


    What does Micah Woods have to do with this thread? What is the relevance of lake sediment?

    If, in certain situations, a course can do away with hollow tining and still maintain putting quality then they are to be commended. The problem arises when the lay public - golfers and committees, owners and GM's - see that some clubs don't aerate and therefore conclude that anyone who still insists on hollow tining must be ignorant or apathetic or both.

    Hollow tining has its place, and there is a multitude of knowledgeable people and experienced, first-rate superintendents who support it.



  24. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    2/23/2017 8:02 AM
    Michael Rogers said: Ron,

    Better to read rather than reply. Go to Univ Neb website, see what was done. It was a grad student doing his thesis or something similar.

    Micah Woods spends so much time on Twitter I and an associate the day before yesterday were remarking how does he find time to work.

    My GM has not allowed us to hollow tine for over 5 years. My OM has been reduced during this period from 3,5% to 1.5% on my microbial program. I did a lake treatment Monday in Mallorca to remove 3000 cubic meters of organic sediment, the result of 25 years of effluent with very high suspended solids.

    If I had wanted to test the efficacy of solid vs hollow, I would of had a mid end maintenance regime with primo etc, some micros,verticutting and topdressing not just a couple of plots with a simple nitrogen source and nothing else. And if were Dr. Gauisson, I would have done it myself if I had wanted to start such a controversy and create headlines to fill auditoriums. His aforementioned colleagues do exactly the same. I have learned more from working with 400 golf superintendents during 25 years in the field than you could in 25 years of the GIS seminars.

    Un saludo Michael


    More gobbledygook. I'm not going to drag this thread any further off topic. But I do see you didn't answer my questions but instead decided to continue to sully the reputation of some very well respected gentlemen (who btw I've had the pleasure of discussing various turf issues with and they have always been most helpful) all in an effort to......well I'll leave it at that.



  25. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    2/28/2017 6:02 AM
    this sounds like something my greenschairman back in 2003 told me. He insisted that he read an article stating we do not need to core aerifye our greens and were to stop the practice. Well needless to say I did not agree with him and told him so and told him it was my ass on the line not his if the greens go south. We had a really big argument over the issue. I'm not proud of how I handled the situation but he had been dogging me to set course conditions up for his group of golfers, wanting to dictate watering schedules, cutting heights and so forth. I had enough of his crap at the time and set up a meeting with the club president. during the meeting with the President I handed him my keys to the course (which surprised him) and told him I was no longer working under the guy. I explained my side of the issues we had (which was on the side of the golf course and all of our members) and told him I was prepared to go to college and learn a new profession (an agreement me and my wife had when she took 6 years in gollege). I told him I enjoyed working here but was tired of getting slammed everyday by only one member. He told me to pick up my keys and he would handle the issue. A week later I was informed that I had a different greens chairman. I have been here since 1995 and have no intentions of leaving until they close the doors or I get to old to work (as Capt has shown me though that may be until I am 90 years old)

    My take on the aerification issue is this. We use soil test to tell us what our soils need to provide the best growing medium possible. Aerification is or should be done the same way. We take a profile plug of our soil and can see how much organics or thatch layer we have and use those tools to determine our aerification needs. I have scratched scheduled aerification off of our calendars when the test shows me we really do not need it. I have had to add extra aerifications in some years where the thatch had gotten more then we needed. Basically I allow the soil to dictate our needs just like we use our soil test to determine the fertility needs of our greens. I feel thats the right way to do it and have brought these soil profiles into our board meetings to show what we are looking at.



  26. David Duke
    David Duke avatar
    0 posts
    3/2/2017 1:03 PM
    Michael Rogers said: Ron,

    Better to read rather than reply. Go to Univ Neb website, see what was done. It was a grad student doing his thesis or something similar.

    Micah Woods spends so much time on Twitter I and an associate the day before yesterday were remarking how does he find time to work.

    My GM has not allowed us to hollow tine for over 5 years. My OM has been reduced during this period from 3,5% to 1.5% on my microbial program. I did a lake treatment Monday in Mallorca to remove 3000 cubic meters of organic sediment, the result of 25 years of effluent with very high suspended solids.

    If I had wanted to test the efficacy of solid vs hollow, I would of had a mid end maintenance regime with primo etc, some micros,verticutting and topdressing not just a couple of plots with a simple nitrogen source and nothing else. And if were Dr. Gauisson, I would have done it myself if I had wanted to start such a controversy and create headlines to fill auditoriums. His aforementioned colleagues do exactly the same. I have learned more from working with 400 golf superintendents during 25 years in the field than you could in 25 years of the GIS seminars.

    Un saludo Michael

    Nice to see you are still a knob, Rogers! What is it with you and accademia? Give me a call one day aye! Like to know how things are going for you. Sounds like you still getting your panties in a bunch and hemroids are bothering you! Regards your mate dd dont forget 50% discount , double basillus



  27. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    3/3/2017 7:03 AM
    David A Duke, CGCS said:
    Michael Rogers said: Ron,

    Better to read rather than reply. Go to Univ Neb website, see what was done. It was a grad student doing his thesis or something similar.

    Micah Woods spends so much time on Twitter I and an associate the day before yesterday were remarking how does he find time to work.

    My GM has not allowed us to hollow tine for over 5 years. My OM has been reduced during this period from 3,5% to 1.5% on my microbial program. I did a lake treatment Monday in Mallorca to remove 3000 cubic meters of organic sediment, the result of 25 years of effluent with very high suspended solids.

    If I had wanted to test the efficacy of solid vs hollow, I would of had a mid end maintenance regime with primo etc, some micros,verticutting and topdressing not just a couple of plots with a simple nitrogen source and nothing else. And if were Dr. Gauisson, I would have done it myself if I had wanted to start such a controversy and create headlines to fill auditoriums. His aforementioned colleagues do exactly the same. I have learned more from working with 400 golf superintendents during 25 years in the field than you could in 25 years of the GIS seminars.

    Un saludo Michael

    Nice to see you are still a knob, Rogers! What is it with you and accademia? Give me a call one day aye! Like to know how things are going for you. Sounds like you still getting your panties in a bunch and hemroids are bothering you! Regards your mate dd


    And just when I thought Pillow had the best user name.



  28. Steven Huffstutler
    Steven Huffstutler avatar
    11 posts
    3/4/2017 11:03 AM
    "still a knob".....*snort* too funny



  29. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    3/6/2017 12:03 PM
    I think a simple way to determine this is start with an ISTRC test. I have A-4 greens in a 12 month climate. Being a resort, I have in the past been limited to 2 aerifications a year, generally 1/2 inch tines. At that rate, we are removing at best 17% organic development. A-4 produces roughly 21% Greens are 17 years old so it doesn't take a math genius to know I have an organic layer problem. Constantly got questions the last few years about why the greens don't feel the same, why aren't they as firm, are you watering more? Simple answer is they have changed so as I have warned for all these years, either we aerify more or start planning to rebuild greens. We can't perform miracles no matter the decisions made. The math tells me with A-4 or other newer varieties of bent, the answer is no, you cannot skip aerification. You can't topdress enough without constantly disrupting play and equipment and make it work. I am not a rookie to the business and would happily argue this with any academic.



  30. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    3/7/2017 7:03 AM
    Hey Sandy, How has the A4 stood up to poa invasion? I have one green with it and it seems to be the least inindated



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