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Aerification Displacement

23 posts
  1. Patrick Quinlan
    Patrick Quinlan avatar
    0 posts
    10/25/2011 11:10 AM
    I have completed my ISTRC test and the result basically recommend that I remove more material at each aerification. I am currently using 5/8" side-eject hollow tines at the 2 inch spacing on the Toro 648. I would like to know if anyone is using 3/4" side-eject hollow tines at the 2 inch spacing?



  2. Joshua Hicks
    Joshua Hicks avatar
    0 posts
    10/25/2011 12:10 PM
    Just got my test results back too. Even more thatch than I expected. I'm looking at trying to hit 40% next year. I'm thinking (but may be crazy) about doing three 1/4" aerifications from March to April without backfilling. Then doing a 5/8 coring on 1.5" centers with backfill in June and August. That gets me to about 45%. Is it crazy to expect to be able to heal from the 1/4" without backfilling? Pretty crazy to try and get sand in holes that small anyway. Thoughts? Suggestions? I'm in extreme southern Louisiana with rather extended growing season and warm springs mid 80 days and mid 60 nights by mid march.

    Josh
    The Atchafalaya



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    10/25/2011 1:10 PM
    Josh, our 1/2" solid tines on bent greens in the summer heal fairly quickly (transition zone). No topdressing.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Brett Morris
    Brett Morris avatar
    0 posts
    10/25/2011 1:10 PM
    pgaenvious said: Just got my test results back too. Even more thatch than I expected. I'm looking at trying to hit 40% next year. I'm thinking (but may be crazy) about doing three 1/4" aerifications from March to April without backfilling. Then doing a 5/8 coring on 1.5" centers with backfill in June and August. That gets me to about 45%. Is it crazy to expect to be able to heal from the 1/4" without backfilling? Pretty crazy to try and get sand in holes that small anyway. Thoughts? Suggestions? I'm in extreme southern Louisiana with rather extended growing season and warm springs mid 80 days and mid 60 nights by mid march.

    Josh
    The Atchafalaya


    Just a thought, but we all know what thatch consists of (material including rhizomes, stolons, etc.)

    By not backfilling with sand, and allowing these holes to fill naturally with rhizomes, stolons, etc., you'll actually be contributing to an increase in OM overall.

    Brett.



  5. Rockwell Brent S
    Rockwell Brent S avatar
    10/25/2011 9:10 PM
    if people are all ready used to the 5/8" tines have you ever considered aerating in two different directions at the same time? We started doing this a couple years back and are pretty pleased with the results. Most people don't realize that we did anything out of the ordinary. The holes recover just as fast, there are just a lot more of them.



  6. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    10/26/2011 4:10 AM
    We aerified with 1/4" tines every 3 weeks, all summer long in Texas. (Bent) Heal time of 3-5 days. We now aerifiy with 3/4" tines, twice a year and graden. (tifeagle) 7 year old greens with an OM of 2 year old greens. What is your N amounts/year?



  7. Patrick Quinlan
    Patrick Quinlan avatar
    0 posts
    10/26/2011 5:10 AM
    When aerifying in two directions are you cleaning the cores between each or waiting until both are complete?



  8. Ashton Alan W
    Ashton Alan W avatar
    10/27/2011 8:10 AM
    .550 side ejects on the mini tine holders... either 1.5" or 2.0" for spacing depending upon your topdressing method and any rutting you may or may not see...



  9. Rockwell Brent S
    Rockwell Brent S avatar
    10/30/2011 8:10 PM
    Whe going in 2 directions we do both directions then clean up all at once. You run over a lot of cores and the green is fairly soft after but after topdressing, dragging and rolling it is pretty much like any other aerified green.



  10. Patrick Quinlan
    Patrick Quinlan avatar
    0 posts
    11/1/2011 11:11 AM
    thanks



  11. T Storie
    T Storie avatar
    0 posts
    11/2/2011 7:11 AM
    Whats an ISTRC test?
    Jr Storie



  12. Trevor Monreal
    Trevor Monreal avatar
    5 posts
    11/2/2011 10:11 AM
    Whats an ISTRC? I'll tell you...very expensive therapy for your "dirt". I call it therapy because even though your turf might look good, there is a problem deep down you need to address.



  13. Patrick Quinlan
    Patrick Quinlan avatar
    0 posts
    11/2/2011 11:11 AM
    The ISTRC test provides results from an undisturbed core of your turf that give infiltration rates, porosity, organic matter per inch, etc. Yes the test is expensive but in my case I wanted to aerify more and I used this test to show the Board why. The report is very detailed and the most useful part will be when we do next years test and show how the infiltration rates have increased as well as hopefully other improvements. If you look on their website it has sample reports.



  14. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    11/2/2011 2:11 PM
    So what do you guys think of Dr. Rossi's stance that studies indicate that hollow tine cultivation actually leads to an increase in organic matter levels? Research by Dr. Gaussoin supported this claim.

    Basically the theory is that, unless you are dealing with layering issues or just took over a course with substantial o.m. build up, pulling a core is really pissing in the wind. He also claims that in such cases core aeration would have to performed four to six time per season for any meaningful impact.



  15. Cecala Randal
    Cecala Randal avatar
    11/3/2011 1:11 AM
    I just read on turf.unl.edu the Gaussoin organic matter presentation and several others. His information is well presented and easily understood.

    Routine topdressing was left out of the protocols. Findings, core pulling regimes had little difference in the absence of routine topdressing. Question, not many supers would ever discontinue their topdressing program, so why not do the testing with topdressing with tests being the various aeration programs and

    NO AERATION AS CONTROL

    but all programs with routine topdressing????

    THIS MAKES SCIENTIFIC AND COMMON SENSE

    Michael Rogers
    Down to EARTH Water Management



  16. Patrick Quinlan
    Patrick Quinlan avatar
    0 posts
    11/3/2011 5:11 AM
    I have been here for four years and the top 1/2 inch is in good shape due to the topdressing program that I started when I got here. I have a layer that is about 1 inch thick around the 1 to 2 inch mark in the greens. This layer is thought to be caused by some sort of high organic topdressing that was used before I got here. The recommendations from ISTRC in MY case is to aggressively aerate through that layer until the percolation rates increase then aeration can be backed off on if the topdressing program remains the same. ISTRC also encourages as much venting as possible in MY case to get oxygen down to that layer to keep the bacteria happy and breaking down the organic matter. I respect Frank and Roch's work and love taking their seminars at National but it all has to be applied to your unique situation.



  17. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    11/3/2011 6:11 AM
    qsnow said: I have been here for four years and the top 1/2 inch is in good shape due to the topdressing program that I started when I got here. I have a layer that is about 1 inch thick around the 1 to 2 inch mark in the greens. This layer is thought to be caused by some sort of high organic topdressing that was used before I got here. The recommendations from ISTRC in MY case is to aggressively aerate through that layer until the percolation rates increase then aeration can be backed off on if the topdressing program remains the same. ISTRC also encourages as much venting as possible in MY case to get oxygen down to that layer to keep the bacteria happy and breaking down the organic matter. I respect Frank and Roch's work and love taking their seminars at National but it all has to be applied to your unique situation.


    Absolutely. That's what we get paid for is to adapt and change with our various situations. I'm not advocating any approach over another. In situations where layering, very high o.m. levels, and / or high clay content soils are trying to be converted, pulling a core and topdressing back in is a must, IMHO. I just think the discussion presented by Rossi and Gaussoin is interesting. It goes against everything I've ever known....which isn't much, granted.



  18. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    11/3/2011 6:11 AM
    randc said: I just read on turf.unl.edu the Gaussoin organic matter presentation and several others. His information is well presented and easily understood.

    Routine topdressing was left out of the protocols. Findings, core pulling regimes had little difference in the absence of routine topdressing. Question, not many supers would ever discontinue their topdressing program, so why not do the testing with topdressing with tests being the various aeration programs and

    NO AERATION AS CONTROL

    but all programs with routine topdressing????

    THIS MAKES SCIENTIFIC AND COMMON SENSE

    Michael Rogers
    Down to EARTH Water Management


    Michael,

    Is that correct? I don't have the research in front of me but I recall routine topdressing was part of the protocol and what he found was that 18 cu. ft per 1000 per season was the minimum needed to apply to maintain an acceptable level of dilution.

    Do you have the link?

    Edit: In Rossi's article on the subject he says [quote">The key to his (Gaussion's) experimental design that seperates it from previous studies was that all plots received the same amopunt of sand topdressing regardless of the cultivation treatment (even the no cultivation treatment). Many previous studies that investigated cultivation and topdresssing applied different amounts of topdressing depending on whether cores had been pulled.

    Gaussion concluded that there is no need to pull a core to manage surface organic matter. In fact if you are able to apply an amount of sand that matches your organic matter accumulation, in his study 18 cubic feet per thousand per season, then you do not have to cultivate at all.

    Are you referring to the same study as I am?



  19. Cecala Randal
    Cecala Randal avatar
    11/4/2011 5:11 AM
    HI Ron, Here is the link http://turf.unl.edu/extpresentationspdf ... Matter.pdf

    It is September 2011. The one slide mentions aeration intervals relative to LIC which I do not understand.

    I think that most research is flawed by illogical reasoning and doing absurd things to present the appearance of supreme objectivity. Then you have the pet projects and ideas of the professors.

    I am finishing an article for publication on irrigation water production, blending, and distribution and then need to translate it into Spanish, so I can't take too much time today. When Gary Grigg posted that aeration does not reduce thatch a couple of years ago we all went through this. I contacted Dr. Gaussion and studied up on this work as Gary suggested.

    If there is a study with constant topdressing and the results showed that hollow-tining combined with same topdressing program in control program with no hollow-tining, made no positive difference in organic matter reduction, I would like to read it.

    The presentation in the link mixes apples and oranges with age of greens, solid versus hollow and differing topdressing quantities. Let's isolate hollow-coring or no hollow-coring with average topdressing program throughout. I also think that data presentation in most turf research and other disciplines for that matter has a long way to go to present clear easily understood information.

    Saludos Michael



  20. Baker Daniel
    Baker Daniel avatar
    11/4/2011 7:11 AM
    I scanned through most of the responses and only saw Tony mention the Graden. This has quickly become my cultivation of choice on my greens. I inherited a significant thatch layer but have good root zone beneath it. Why pull a core to 4,5,10 inches when your problem is in the top 1.5? I solid tine monthly to 4" for gas exchange and run the graden twice a year at .75" along with massive amounts of sand. I also throw in a .5" core to three inches in the early summer just to cover my bases any deeper if needed.

    Since adopting this program, I have seen tremendous results in firmness, appearance, and putting quality.

    Just a note on research: Research is ongoing and often contradicts itself. An ISTRIC test is good knowlege but at the end of the day, its just numbers. Our profession consists of the scientific side of things as well as the more "art" side of the job. If it works, do it. Research may not always back it up, but it still works.



  21. Cecala Randal
    Cecala Randal avatar
    11/4/2011 10:11 AM
    Ron, I checked on Frank Rossi's and Roch Gaussoin's websites for published articles. I think these statements come from their speaking presentations rather than from pier reviewed ( as they love to say ) published articles.

    I Googled the quote you provided and nothing comes up. I have spent a couple of hours looking for articles by either.

    There is an article in May 2008 by Roch about thatch and organic matter. My personal opinion is that these two have learned from the Elvis guy to do Talk Radio type controversial presentations to promote a very healthy speaking engagement scenario.

    I am all ears and eyes to see published articles. Where did you get your Rossi comments from regarding Roch?

    Thanks Michael



  22. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    11/4/2011 11:11 AM
    randc said: Ron, I checked on Frank Rossi's and Roch Gaussoin's websites for published articles. I think these statements come from their speaking presentations rather than from pier reviewed ( as they love to say ) published articles.

    I Googled the quote you provided and nothing comes up. I have spent a couple of hours looking for articles by either.

    There is an article in May 2008 by Roch about thatch and organic matter. My personal opinion is that these two have learned from the Elvis guy to do Talk Radio type controversial presentations to promote a very healthy speaking engagement scenario.

    I am all ears and eyes to see published articles. Where did you get your Rossi comments from regarding Roch?

    Thanks Michael


    Michael,

    Here's the article in question.

    [attachment=0">rossi_any_hole_will_do[1].pdf[/attachment">



  23. Cecala Randal
    Cecala Randal avatar
    11/4/2011 1:11 PM
    Rossi ramblings are conjecture. Roch's clip I posted earlier says that none of them make any correlated difference even topdressing if you look at charts. The dots are all over the place for topdressing.
    I am afraid my Talk Radio analogy is best case scenario. Results are from Chas Schmid's Master's thesis that is yet to be published.

    This theme should be researched properly. There are too many variables, protocols should be set up to clarify the murky waters.

    http://www.turfnet.com/view_news.php?obj_id=786

    Research shows that other factors contribute to spongy greens. For example, organic matter builds up at the surface as greens age, and that material also can retain water. Stowell and other researchers believe that aerification is an optimal way to try to relieve those conditions, because the holes offer the perfect medium for applying densely packed sand. Simply topdressing, he said, may not work as well. The reason is due to the filtering effect of the turfgrass canopy. Only the smaller sand particles make their way into the surface of the green while the 1 mm and larger particles are removed by mowers. Without the larger particles being incorporated into the root rootzone, the surface of the green might soften over time.

    Other researchers, including Gaussoin and Frank S. Rossi, Ph.D., of Cornell University have shown that aerifying with solid or needle tines can be just as effective as core aeration.

    And Charles Schmid, formerly a graduate student at Nebraska, showed in his master's thesis (still awaiting publication) that nothing outperformed straight topdressing sand applied at a rate of 18 cubic feet to 22 cubic feet per 1,000 square feet per year at slowing organic matter accumulation on creeping bentgrass.

    None of which has yet proven that the use of sand is better than withholding water at producing firm putting surfaces.

    "Greens are too dry. We all know that," Gaussoin said.



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