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Toro 4500D PTO randomly stops then starts

15 posts
  1. Sean Donnelly
    Sean Donnelly avatar
    8 posts
    5/9/2018 10:05 AM
    I have a Toro 4500D 30856-2700000131 serial number that has a random PTO shutting off and then turning back on magically usually within a few seconds. This machine was purchased used by my club with 2887 hrs Jan 2017. From my understanding it has always had this problem. Here is some history of what has been done.
    Jan 2017 2887 hrs -- hyd fluid changed to Bio Syn Extra
    Jul 2017 3134 hrs -- mow solenoids swapped out with spares
    Jul 2017 3200 hrs -- drained hyd fluid added Napa AW46 hyd oil and 48oz Lucas trans fix
    Sept 2017 3391 hrs -- replaced proximity switch under lift lower handle
    Sept 2017 3396 hrs-- swapped main control module board with working unit in fleet
    Oct 2017. 3503 hrs -- machine to local Toro vendor replaced ignition switch PTO rocker switch check all wiring - can not replicate problem
    Nov 2017 mechanic retired I inherited problem
    Dec 2017 replaced seal in rear end letting hyd oil into rear end
    Mar 2018 check and bypass each of the following with no change--seat switch, PTO relays, ohms check on both solenoids good, high low 2wd 4wd switch, circuit board diode swapped with working unit, both front deck position sensors. Swapped ramp up module. Checked center PTO switch on lift lower handle. Park brake switch

    95% of time the blades work when they do work the PTO output light on the control module is bright sending power to the ramp up module then the blades engage. When the blades do not turn on the PTO light is very dim and flickers sending no power to the ramp up module. At this time you can hear the center PTO relay clicking. The machine can sit with PTO on blades not turning PTO light dim/ flickering, by doing nothing all of a sudden blades will start PTO light is full lit.

    Any help is appreciated



  2. Zachary Hill
    Zachary Hill avatar
    1 posts
    5/10/2018 5:05 AM
    Have you pulled the relay to test it? I would test the relay when it shows the problem. Relays can still click when malfunctioning.

    Does this problem occur only when the unit has been running? Or is it random?



  3. Sean Donnelly
    Sean Donnelly avatar
    8 posts
    5/10/2018 12:05 PM
    I tested the relay according to the service manual. It tested within spec. I also swapped relays with another 4500d that we have that works with no change. The problem seems very random but I have been able to replicate it with the engine not running and the key on so I rule out hydraulics. It does seem to do it more after the electronics get hot and not as soon as the machine starts.

    This morning I pulled all the wire loom off and inspected wires nothing stands out as bad connection.
    I also added an additional ground into the system thinking there may be a short.
    Testing now. Next move is fuse box inspection.



  4. Roland McPhearson
    Roland McPhearson avatar
    9 posts
    5/11/2018 8:05 AM
    Sounds like a bad connection to me. I had a similar problem with a Toro 5400. It was a corroded temp warning light bulb! A bad connection on the input or output of a ECU even on a circuit unrelated to the circuit in question can shut the whole works down.

    I've bypassed the ECU on a 4500 before but I incorporated all safety switches into the relay circuit I installed.



  5. Bob Pruneau
    Bob Pruneau avatar
    5 posts
    5/13/2018 4:05 AM
    I had a new 5410 in the past that after a few hours mowing it would shut down the entire machine . Get this only down hill making a right turn up hill . Toro suggested repair tighten ground cable on engine block . Ya right scratching my head . Did it ( maybe a quarter of a turn ) problem gone . I was stumped lol



  6. Bob Pruneau
    Bob Pruneau avatar
    5 posts
    5/13/2018 4:05 AM
    Hmm wonder if the machines (charging system electrical) regulator is leaving charge in system slightly high all the time or randomly causing the relay to arc on or stick on .



  7. Bob Pruneau
    Bob Pruneau avatar
    5 posts
    5/14/2018 2:05 AM
    Also could be seat switch or operator weigh adjustment on seat



  8. Sean Donnelly
    Sean Donnelly avatar
    8 posts
    5/18/2018 7:05 AM
    Here is a quick update. I added another ground into the wire harness, cleaned the fuse box terminals and put new fuses in machine has been good for 6 days now and I have incorporated the safety switches back in and is still working well even in some nasty wet weather.

    Ironically the last 2 days my other 4500D has started having the same problem however it will run well for 3 hrs then PTO will shut off. Same dim light on PTO output on computer. If the machine sits at the shop for 15 mins running the PTO will energize and it will work for another couple hours. I did all my previous fixes to no change this time. The only thing I swapped out between the two where 3 relays. I put new ones in from Napa -no change-

    A few things to note. The previous mechanic swapped the ecu from machine #1 (this one) to machine number 2 to find the fault last year. There was no change in machine number 2 and this one always worked fine until now. Another interesting thing to note and I am not sure if it is related is this machine worked well then had a hydraulic leak on a rear lift arm hose. It has developed this PTO trouble after that. Currently it is running Bio-SynXtra trans hydraulic oil.

    Roland could you give me some more info on how you bypassed the ecu on a 4500? Maybe there is a diode in there that gets hot and then cools off?



  9. Brian Kolar
    Brian Kolar avatar
    0 posts
    5/18/2018 12:05 PM
    Just had a very similar issue on a Lastec, and the cause was ign main wire was broken internally near the alternator. This was very frustrating, as it made a solid connection 95% of the time. It would usually fail after 30min and/or making a right turn.

    Fluke makes insulation piercing test leads. I would be lost without them. Use them to test power/gnd at the module and/or mow solenoid.



  10. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    5/20/2018 6:05 AM
    Toro is highly dependent on really good grounds. on my 5400 I was told that they had another ground wire in the hand rest and to run a wire from the battery to it. this fixed the problem.

    We had been having problems lately with starting it as we would have to use the charger some of the time. I finally went and bought two new battery cable ends and told my mechanic to install them. he installs the positive because the negative cable is a soldered on one that looked perfect, I made him change it also. not a single problem since.

    so unless you have a new machine the first place I always start on Toro electrical issues is cleaning both ends of the ground cables and the frame where they attach. you may have to grind the paint off the frame. if the cable looks anywhere near old/frayed install a new end on it. This right here may save countless hours of troubleshooting and it should always be the beginning of your troubleshooting process. without a great ground your just wasting time.



  11. Roland McPhearson
    Roland McPhearson avatar
    9 posts
    5/21/2018 7:05 AM
    Sean Donnelly said:

    Roland could you give me some more info on how you bypassed the ecu on a 4500? Maybe there is a diode in there that gets hot and then cools off?

    I will try to print the wiring diagram and take a look at yours.



  12. Roland McPhearson
    Roland McPhearson avatar
    9 posts
    5/22/2018 10:05 AM
    Sean, I cannot find the operators manual, which includes the wiring diagram, for your s/n machine.



  13. Sean Donnelly
    Sean Donnelly avatar
    8 posts
    5/29/2018 12:05 PM
    Today #1 rough mower PTO stopped and did not come back on. I traced all wiring and have power going to the ramp up module. If the module is plugged in the PTO light is out on the board. Once I unplug the module the light comes back on as energized. I have already added a ground to the system and #2 has been working flawlessly now. That did not fix this one however.

    If I bypass the ramp up module with a switch the decks will energize. I am aware the module is used to prevent hydraulic spikes however a new module is over $500. Can these modules be tested with an OHM meter? Has anyone ever ran without? I do not want to damage the system and will replace if necessary. Going to swap #2 in and try. Anything I may have missed or advice?



  14. Sean Donnelly
    Sean Donnelly avatar
    8 posts
    5/17/2019 8:05 AM
    Updating this thread on what I have found,

    The control module (106-9277) is interchangeable between my two rough mowers 4500D (30856-27000xx) (30868-270000xx) sidewinder #1 (30821-2500xx) sidewinder #2 (30839-270000xx) apparently some 3550, 3100D and 648 use the same control modules as well.

    I swapped my SCM from rough mower #2 to sidewinder #1 last year. this fixed the problem with that mower and has been problem free since. This year I started having random PTO shut down on my rough mower #1 this season after a few hours of operation. Swapping the SCM with my sidewinder #2 and the PTO shutting off followed the module. Failure of these SCM seems common as I was talking with a neighboring course with the same issue over the winter. Both of my rough mower machines do not fall within the serial number range to update wire harness. I did all this testing and research then find others as well.....

    http://golftechs.net/forum/index.php?th ... post-83676
    http://golftechs.net/forum/index.php?th ... post-83654



  15. Mike Tanis
    Mike Tanis avatar
    5 posts
    6/20/2019 2:06 AM
    I had same problem, ended up being ecu, but it's hard to troubleshoot those as there is no way in testing them .



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