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Employee gets into argument

34 posts
  1. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    11/9/2012 4:11 PM
    Today at the end of work my Assistant had to get onto an operator for not greasing his equipment before quitting for the day. The guy got confrontational with him which ended up escalating with him in my assistants face which my Assistant says made him feel threatened so he pulls his knife holding it neck high.

    I know my Assistant is not blameless for this escalating like it did because he will argue back.

    All of this happened 30 minutes before we shut down but while I happened to be in the Pro Shop office learning our new POS system. By the time I arrived it was over with the employee calling the cops. They issued my Assistant a summons after letting the other guy leave but did not take him to jail because he felt their was no intention to injure involved.

    I have already informed my President, 1st and 2nd Vice President, and told them I will do whatever they feel needs doing. I suspended both guys for 3 days to start with.

    How would you handle the situation?



  2. Niemier Rick A
    Niemier Rick A avatar
    11/9/2012 5:11 PM
    James Smith said: Today at the end of work my Assistant had to get onto an operator for not greasing his equipment before quitting for the day. The guy got confrontational with him which ended up escalating with him in my assistants face which my Assistant says made him feel threatened so he pulls his knife holding it neck high.

    I know my Assistant is not blameless for this escalating like it did because he will argue back.

    All of this happened 30 minutes before we shut down but while I happened to be in the Pro Shop office learning our new POS system. By the time I arrived it was over with the employee calling the cops. They issued my Assistant a summons after letting the other guy leave but did not take him to jail because he felt their was no intention to injure involved.

    I have already informed my President, 1st and 2nd Vice President, and told them I will do whatever they feel needs doing. I suspended both guys for 3 days to start with.

    How would you handle the situation?


    Neither the employee or your assistant should come back to work until you or your President talk to an attorney. Once that has occurred I would follow the recommendations of your President and club attorney. I can't see how you let your assistant come back, ever. Workplace violence has to be taken very seriously. Fact is, your probably going to be looking for 2 new employees.



  3. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    11/9/2012 5:11 PM
    I agree with Rick.



  4. Hardy Andrew
    Hardy Andrew avatar
    11/9/2012 6:11 PM
    On board with Rick and Andy 100%. Keep one or the other and they'll feel invincible



  5. Wallace Jeffrey V
    Wallace Jeffrey V avatar
    11/9/2012 9:11 PM
    Unbelievable! Your employee felt comfortable enough to be insubordinate and challenge your assistant? And your assistant felt the appropriate response was to pull a knife?

    I'm a little confused about your role in your organization. You are the superintendent and are responsible for the actions of all staff reporting directly to you. Why is it necessary to get permission from your President, et al.?

    This is a case of gross insubordination, unless the employee was being asked to wash the assistant's car. No...the employee was being instructed to maintain his equipment.

    Your assistant pulled a knife on another employee. Was he being threatened by another deadly weapon? Apparently not, but regardless, a supervisor pulling a knife on an employee?

    If this doesn't fall into your club guidelines as "for cause", then something needs to be rewritten.

    Your President, and all of those above you, should be giving you enough respect to handle your own department. Which I assume to be the largest department at your club, and without a doubt the most important.

    Perhaps your arrangement is unusual, but unless you wish to be seen by your entire staff, and even more importantly those you work for, as someone who is afraid to act without someone else making that decision for them, then you need to act decisively. Now. With confidence and authority.

    You are either the superintendent, with full powers to act when it is a legitimate, or you are just another staff member, but with another title.

    Jim,

    This incident has the potential of either showing your true authority, which your President, owners, etc., should respect and admire, or letting everyone know that you feel you are simply a staff member, unable to act without guidance.

    You're either the golf course superintendent, one of the most important and respected positions in any club, or you're not.

    Which is it?

    Terminate both of them. Immediately!



  6. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    11/9/2012 9:11 PM
    Jeffrey Wallace, CGCS said: Unbelievable! Your employee felt comfortable enough to be insubordinate and challenge your assistant? And your assistant felt the appropriate response was to pull a knife?

    I'm a little confused about your role in your organization. You are the superintendent and are responsible for the actions of all staff reporting directly to you. Why is it necessary to get permission from your President, et al.?

    This is a case of gross insubordination, unless the employee was being asked to wash the assistant's car. No...the employee was being instructed to maintain his equipment.

    Your assistant pulled a knife on another employee. Was he being threatened by another deadly weapon? Apparently not, but regardless, a supervisor pulling a knife on an employee?

    If this doesn't fall into your club guidelines as "for cause", then something needs to be rewritten.

    Your President, and all of those above you, should be giving you enough respect to handle your own department. Which I assume to be the largest department at your club, and without a doubt the most important.

    Perhaps your arrangement is unusual, but unless you wish to be seen by your entire staff, and even more importantly those you work for, as someone who is afraid to act without someone else making that decision for you, then you need to act decisively. Now. With confidence and authority.

    You are either the superintendent, with full powers to act when it is a legitimate, or you are just another staff member, but with another title.

    Jim,

    This incident has the potential of either showing your true authority, which your President, owners, etc., should respect, or letting everyone know that you feel you are simply a staff member, unable to act without guidance.

    You're either the golf course superintendent, one of the most important and respected positions in any club, or you're not.

    Which is it?

    Terminate both of them. Immediately!


    I was waiting for Jeff to reply because I knew I would agree with him. He's smarter than me, on things like this, anyway.

    Why do you need to see what your Club President or attorney would do? Fire them both.

    One or both of them will do you wrong sooner or later. You've proabably already thought about getting rid of one or both. You just haven't done it yet.

    You'll be glad you did it.



  7. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    11/10/2012 4:11 AM
    (One thing I have learned from this forum is everyone is smarter than Pete, except maybe Clay.) Not doing your job and insubordination = termination. Pulling a knife on anyone = termination. All of this stuff goes away when you compensate your people properly. I have said it before and I will say it again, I love my SEIU Employees.



  8. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    11/10/2012 5:11 AM
    Thanks for the input guys.

    Let me state that I do not have to wait for a word from my board to make a decision, but only feel that they may want to consider the legal side of this. We are a very small member owned club. We just went through the flooding from Isaac and have been working extra hard doing things that golf course crews do not generally do. I only have six workers + my equipment tech. My assistant has been there for 10 years and the other a total of 5. I plan on questioning my other crew members this morning to get more information since I was not there to actually see what went down.

    I do not fear my authority being questioned by anyone, employees or board members. After 18 years of service I have 100% backing on anything I do in my department. My board and even greens chairman never question my work, work ethic or the way my department has been run. I maintain their unbending respect because I bring important matters to their attention and never hide anything from them. I am always given a greens chairman that has little input into my department because their philosophy is that they have never had a problem with me or my department and do not want a high strung person shaking the boat (their choice not mine). So yes my club is different then most, way different.

    I always try to sleep on decisions such as this rather then make rash decisions in the heat of the moment. I came to this board to see what others may do in a similar situation. Law suits are abundant in today's society and my club could not afford one especially now. I can see the employee's mom making one since she was on her phone talking to her lawyer while the police was there. It was easiest to suspend both guys on the spot for three days in order to get as many facts as possible before terminating anyone. Do they both deserve to be fired? If the employee pushed my assistant like my assistant said so, YES. If he did not lay hands on my assistant but was the receipient of being confronted about his duties in the wrong manner, maybe not. Jumping the gun and terminating both guys on the spot would not of made anything better or protected my club.

    In my mind right now my assistant will be terminated upon return to work Thursday morning or if the board desires a different outcome he will be suspended for two weeks and possibly made to attend anger management classes or something. Do you just dump 10 years worth of dedicated hard work for one mistake? Remember that we are a small backwaters club and do not have the same employee training most larger clubs are privileged to get. If an employee has a drug problem do you fire him are allow him to try to get clean? Every club is different.

    My equipment tech is also due to retire this next month and now it looks like I could be stuck with half of my crew in a months time. This will not dictate my decision in the above matter though. Oh we'll life goes on.



  9. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    11/10/2012 6:11 AM
    Ten years dedicated service deserves very real consideration. In addition, we cannot tell how much danger your assistant perceived. Keep your assistant, but take away his knife! No knifing of employees has to be a strict rule. I once had a Cuban immigrant employee come into my office waving a machete yelling, "I kill him! I kill him!" I had to say, "Have you already killed him or are you going to kill him?"

    As an apprentice I fired six employees en masse for smoking pot. This was the early 80's and I replaced them all the same day. My superintendent came to a crew meeting a week later and said, "Scott, you are going to have to introduce me. I don't know anyone here." That firing followed me to every job I have had since. For every job I've had I have been told, "We don't do that here." Consulting with the bosses is a good idea before firing.



  10. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    11/11/2012 7:11 AM
    Scott Wahlin, CGCS said: (One thing I have learned from this forum is everyone is smarter than Pete, except maybe Clay.) Not doing your job and insubordination = termination. Pulling a knife on anyone = termination. All of this stuff goes away when you compensate your people properly. I have said it before and I will say it again, I love my SEIU Employees.


    Scott - FYI - paying people properly does not make this stuff go away. Everybody here is very well paid (union of course) and many still try to skate by doing the minimum. In fact I suspended a guy last week for being insubordinate.

    It must be because I don't know how to run the place



  11. Robert Crockett
    Robert Crockett avatar
    4 posts
    11/12/2012 7:11 AM
    It's those little things that get you terminated.......Like a KNIFE!!...I wouldn't think twice about it....I wouldn't care if MY assistant has been here for 20yrs......There's NO excuse! He's in a position of compromise and peace keeping. You cannot make me believe that he couldn't physically get away from the incident and call the law, then you. I care for my employee's and we have an understanding.....Lying and pulling a KNIFE = ZERO TOLERANCE.



  12. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    11/12/2012 9:11 AM
    I think I would trust all of your staff to kiss and make up. Then give them all knives to make it fair. Better yet give them guns. It worked for us in the Cold War right?

    What other choice do you have? I guess you could terminate both of them and save yourself losing your job in the future but go ahead, live on the edge, man.



  13. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    11/12/2012 3:11 PM
    What has been dissapointing is that I still have not heard from my President or any of the board members as of yet.

    My decision was made up as of Saturday Morning, unless the Board had another direction they would want to go in. I have no choice but to terminate my assistant. Pulling a knife should and is the means for termination. Being in a management position gives you many more options before showing force. I will not tolerate it here from anyone. you want to fight you better take it off of the property and out of my sight. I will ask the board not to contest his unemployement should he file in regards to his 10 years of dedicated service (they allowed our last pro to get unemployement even though they knew he had stole money from them). He still has two weeks vacation so it will help him until he can get another position. I am up in the air as to if we should make an offer for him to resign in order to keep it out of his record though. I do not currently know if that is an option we can take under the circumstances.

    The other worker will be suspended as he is currently and put on probation. From what I gather he pushed my assistant after he had pulled the knife which the police officer said was the proper thing to do to create space. He was wrong to get in a heated argument in the first place as well as the insubordination so after I talk to him Thursday morning his 3-day suspension will be extended for the rest of the week and he will know he is on thin ice.

    The only reason I do not terminate him is because of the possible lawsuite that his mother may push on the club. I believe that it will go away once they understand that the assistant had been terminated over the issue.

    Does anyone think this should be handled a different way? Remember that we are not a top course in a metro area so some things tend to get handled on a lower scale then some of you are use to due to our location and backwoods ways.

    I will try to call my president tomorrow to settle this as quick as possible. I would like to simply let him know he screwed up and cannot come back except to pick up his things and check.



  14. Baker Daniel
    Baker Daniel avatar
    11/12/2012 3:11 PM
    If after 10 years your assistant can't take a situation like this and diffuse it he needs to find a job with less responsibility. Your assistant directly represents you when you are not on site and behavior like this is inexcusable. I fire both and make sure the rest of the crew knows there is no tolerance for behavior like this.

    It was drilled in me that everyone is replaceable, even you. Do the hard thing and let them both go and replace them both. You will be able to find a comparable or even better assistant and operator to take their place.



  15. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    11/13/2012 6:11 AM
    Daniel Baker said: If after 10 years your assistant can't take a situation like this and diffuse it he needs to find a job with less responsibility. Your assistant directly represents you when you are not on site and behavior like this is inexcusable. I fire both and make sure the rest of the crew knows there is no tolerance for behavior like this.

    It was drilled in me that everyone is replaceable, even you. Do the hard thing and let them both go and replace them both. You will be able to find a comparable or even better assistant and operator to take their place.


    So as you see it I am supposed to get rid of both even though it may bring a lawsuit that my club cannot afford no can the afford any type of settlement which generally comes from these law suits. How important will my position to my club become after this happens?

    I can see your side of the issue and may even agree with it to some extent but to be blinded as to what my actions may damage my club would be stupid and irresponsible and may even be the contributing factor in my club having to close its doors.

    Sorry but I have to look beyond today and tomorrow and understand what my actions could cause.



  16. Justin VanLanduit
    Justin VanLanduit avatar
    0 posts
    11/13/2012 7:11 AM
    James,

    You've got yourself quite the situation there. This is always one of my biggest fears with the work we do and sometimes the type of people we have come in to help do the work. Obviously we do our best to hire the right guys but yet you still don't really know everyone you have on your staff. Your Assistant has shown dedication to you and the club so he definitely gets some consideration for that but for the time he served and not having any issues to pulling a knive on a guy, something else is going on outside of work or this employee and your Assistant have had something brewing over time. The last thing you want to do is bring a lawsuit on your club but I'm not sure how comforting it would be for you two keep the two on staff or if you keep one and not the other there may be some personal vendeta to settle from the guy that loses his job. I'm like you, I don't like to make knee jerk reactions so I think you are doing the correct thing in letting things calm down and exploring your options. I feel though in the end for crew moral and you feeling at ease an not needing to worry about your crew both employees are going to have to be let go. Loyalty is huge but your Assistant should have thought about your loyalty to him and stepped away from the situation and contacted you immediately before making the poor decision that he did, he's put your job and reputation on the line as a result of his actions. You're gonna have to make a stand here and let your employees and your employer know that you do not and will not tolerate this type of behavior under your direction. If a lawsuit is brought on the club that's unfortunate but I'd rather go through that then have one of these short fuses on my staff where they could do something more drastic down the road, you just don't know when.

    Justin



  17. Mark Van Lienden
    Mark Van Lienden avatar
    14 posts
    11/13/2012 10:11 AM
    If you don't grease that machine I'm gonna.....
    Lawsuit?...good luck with that.
    What kinda lawsuit are you going to get when he cuts someone?
    If you let them both go it will show you are in control and will not accept this kind of behavior.This will start your new employees knowing you are incharge.I bet with this economy that you can find new help.



  18. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    11/13/2012 1:11 PM
    Mark Van Lienden, CGCS said: If you don't grease that machine I'm gonna.....
    Lawsuit?...good luck with that.
    What kinda lawsuit are you going to get when he cuts someone?
    If you let them both go it will show you are in control and will not accept this kind of behavior.This will start your new employees knowing you are incharge.I bet with this economy that you can find new help.



    I do not think you are understanding that it was the assistant that pulled the knife and he is the one that is being terminated. He will not get the chance to cut someone here. I do not know why anyone thinks that I would have to fire someone to show that I am in control.



  19. Baker Daniel
    Baker Daniel avatar
    11/13/2012 2:11 PM
    You asked for an opinion and you got one. What kind of lawsuit are you thinking will be pushed on the club by the employees mother? Wrongful termination? Insubordination is surely one of the offenses that can result in termination. Leaving the knife out of it, you could let him go. His lawsuit may be with the assistant, and even then it is a lawsuit that has no damages. What exactly would he sue for?

    Sorry, just looking for clarification. How you handle your business is your business, but again, you asked...



  20. Mark Van Lienden
    Mark Van Lienden avatar
    14 posts
    11/14/2012 8:11 AM
    Sorry James,
    I didn't mean to say you had to fire someone to show you were in control.You are the person who knows both these employees and knows who if anyone needs to go.It's a shame that this type of situation has arose and any termination has such an effect on a persons life one needs to weigh the facts carefully which I am sure you have.I am sure you will make a good decision as you have been in the bussiness a long time.Trust your instincts.



  21. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    11/14/2012 9:11 AM
    I terminated one about a month or so ago for less than that and his violation fell into the insubordination area. After intervening into a argument between two employees one told me I could go forincate myselt and then followed up with another act I could perform on him as well. I merely smiled and asked him to remove his belongings and exit the property. I think pulling a weapon deserves immediate dismissal without question.

    I wrote up the incident as required, including the documents that must be forwarded to the state dept of labor and made copies to go to my superiors up the chain of command. All I was told is that I handled it properly and in a timely fashion. He has made no attempt to file and claim unemployment as of yet.



  22. Ashton Alan W
    Ashton Alan W avatar
    11/14/2012 9:11 AM
    James,

    If this happened at my facility, both would be terminated...

    We are a right to work state and our policy manual (which everyone signs off on...) is crystal clear... maybe something else to consider for your situation.



  23. Hardy Andrew
    Hardy Andrew avatar
    11/14/2012 12:11 PM
    Haven't been on here in a couple of days. Has nobody been fired yet?



  24. James Smith
    James Smith avatar
    112 posts
    11/14/2012 1:11 PM
    Andrew Hardy said: Haven't been on here in a couple of days. Has nobody been fired yet?

    As a matter of fact my Assistant was released today. He knew he had made a bad mistake and had no problem with the termination.

    My Equipment tech made it back to work yesterday and I was able to get his version of the incident. The other employee would not do what he was being told to do and was walking awayfrom the shop to our lunchroom when he started spouting his mouth off to my Assistant. he was saying personal things about a guy he does not know so the argument got worse with an in your face issue. most know the rest of the story.

    As of yesterday I determined that employee will also be let go! I personally feel he egged my Assistant into the argument. With my Equipment tech's informantion I feel that no lawsuit can come to fruitation.

    In todays world a lawsuit can cost you a lot of money even if you win. lawers fees and time away from work as well as the hassel that a Club President may have to deal with. I make sure when I am responsible for everything to make sure I am doing the right thing. Giving the three days suspension at the moment was the right thing so I can research the facts. now that all of the facts are in the answer is easy. They are both terminated, I just have to tell the other guy tomorrow morning he no longer has a job. No problem.

    David Mac can probably understand my situation better then most since he actuall run the course a long time ago. It just is not your run of the mill golf club.



  25. Hardy Andrew
    Hardy Andrew avatar
    11/15/2012 6:11 AM
    Nobody is naive enough to think firing people will ever be easy. Chalk it up to a learning experience (we are never too old to learn something new) and in this case an addition via subtraction. If it didn't happen now, it was due to happen eventually.



  26. Michael Wagner
    Michael Wagner avatar
    0 posts
    11/16/2012 9:11 AM
    I think I would handle this a little differently than most because I wouldn't fire either employee right off the bat if this was the first incedent for either employee. If it was the first incedent I would suspend them both for a week then have a private meeting with both employees when they came back to work. I would explain calmly that neither of the handled the situation properly and that they both need to address the issue calmly. I would also point out to my assistant ( 1 on 1 ) that if he wanted to continue to work in a management position for me he would have to learn how to deal with issues like this in a calm and professional manner the first time before he puts himself in a situation like this. I would do something similar with the other employee but I would have my assistant in the room as well and it would be directed more towards the insubordination and how my assistant should be treated the same as me with respect. I would let them both know that I would place them on a 6 month probation where if there were any type of incedent at all between them or involving either of them they would be terminated immediately no questions asked. I think if someone has given you 10 years of dedicated service without any sort of incedent like this then it was probably an isolated incedent and can probably be forgiven with proper guidance. I come from a place that employs over 1100 people per year with a huge turnover every year and we rarely fire people. I've been here 11 years and can only recall 2 people getting fired. Firing often times gives people a reason for vengence and can lead to sabotage and in the golf business if someone knows anything about it they can do some serious damage without leaving any kind of proof about who it was and do it undetected at night. I'm certainly not affraid to fire someone with just cause but usually other options are more productive. Besides if the problem is going to persist you will know within a couple of weeks and then you can take the other road and start looking for 2 new employees.



  27. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    11/16/2012 11:11 AM
    Michael, you pose an interesting rebuttal. I think based on most work place rules, the assistant had no chance of remaining what so ever. Weapons or the hint of violence are probably on top of the list for automatic termination. At that point, I don't think it would be right to allow the insubordinate employee to stay after you have been required to fire the assistant. I am sure we all have our policy and procedure manuals which clearly spell out specifics. The assistant would lose in every case just based on company policy. Anything eve close to work place violence will result in termination just about everywhere.



  28. Michael Wagner
    Michael Wagner avatar
    0 posts
    11/16/2012 12:11 PM
    Sandy Clark, CGCS said: Michael, you pose an interesting rebuttal. I think based on most work place rules, the assistant had no chance of remaining what so ever. Weapons or the hint of violence are probably on top of the list for automatic termination. At that point, I don't think it would be right to allow the insubordinate employee to stay after you have been required to fire the assistant. I am sure we all have our policy and procedure manuals which clearly spell out specifics. The assistant would lose in every case just based on company policy. Anything eve close to work place violence will result in termination just about everywhere.



    I agree that termination of both employees is probably the inevitable outcome no matter where you are. The fact that there was a deadly weapon involved magnifies that. That being said I would sleep with one eye open pointed at my golf course if I was doing the firing. On another note I have seen time and time again where an employee handbook says one thing but when it comes down to it automatic termination rarely occurs even for things it should. I should probably also mention that I am at a large ski resort that pulls employees from a small town. Not the easiest task when you need 1100 bodies and the immediate population is only around 3000. Retention is a big thing here so I guess we find reasons not to fire people.



  29. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    11/16/2012 1:11 PM
    I remember working in a ski town. During the time I was there the resort dropped their drug testing policy, due to the fact that they couldn't actually get enough people through the screening to keep the place going. But you still need to fire someone who threatens someone with a weapon, I don't care how hard it is to find good help.

    Think of the lawsuits that could come out of that one - management being allowed to threaten people with weapons if they don't do their jobs. I mean think of what that really means if this person isn't fired. "We allow our management to threaten our employees with weapons as long as it does not happen too often." Good luck with that one.



  30. Paul Hallock
    Paul Hallock avatar
    6 posts
    11/18/2012 9:11 AM
    I do not even see an argument, employee gets fired for insubordination, assistant gets fired for the weapon. End of story, life is too short to worry about, they both made the bed that they will lie in.......................There are plenty of good people out there that need work!!



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