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Crew member wages and H2B

20 posts
  1. Nuckolls Trenton B
    Nuckolls Trenton B avatar
    8/1/2013 1:08 PM
    I am at a golf course in Arkansas and we use the H2B program for seasonal golf course workers. Well the department of labor is at it again trying to dictate to us how much we have to pay these workers. I was just curious what other courses pay their workers an hour regardless if you use H2B or not. If you don't mind to post what your lowest & highest crew members make also the state that you are from. For us we start at $8.25, highest guy $11.00.

    Thanks for any information



  2. Nuckolls Trenton B
    Nuckolls Trenton B avatar
    8/1/2013 2:08 PM
    Now I would like to know why do you view the question but not answer?

    Thanks
    Trent



  3. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    8/1/2013 2:08 PM
    Because I don't have any employees.



  4. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/1/2013 2:08 PM
    I viewed the question and did not answer because I am obnoxious and retired. I don't think the government should dictate anything. Pay your employees the absolute minimum you can and let the government provide food stamps, healthcare, infrastructure, mass transit and everything else it takes to run your business while you complain about big government.



  5. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/1/2013 3:08 PM
    We will start at $8.00 and go up to $9.50 for crew members. We do have some PM mechanics who we pay $10 to. This is in SW Missouri. This is also what most seasonals make in our overall parks operations department.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  6. Trevor Monreal
    Trevor Monreal avatar
    5 posts
    8/2/2013 7:08 AM
    Because I can...
    And because I don't want the other courses in my area to think they need to bump their employee wages up to my extravagant levels.
    Besides, I don't quite understand how the government dictates what you pay.
    Do you have to use the H2B program?
    You don't have to answer that...
    I'm just curious.



  7. Christopher Lewis
    Christopher Lewis avatar
    0 posts
    8/2/2013 9:08 AM
    $9.00 low and high in CO



  8. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/2/2013 11:08 AM
    Trent would that be the federal department of labor or state? Are those some decent wages for Arkansas what you are paying? That's better then what Walmart pays isn't it?

    Can you not find qualified help without going the H2B route?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  9. Robert Mitchell
    Robert Mitchell avatar
    0 posts
    8/6/2013 9:08 AM
    We start at $7.50 and currently my highest paid is just shy of $13, this is in Central Alabama



  10. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/6/2013 4:08 PM
    Since this came up and out to us in an Action alert (of course my congressman has probably gone into hiding for the next 5 weeks). Can anyone explain how this all works? From the action alert information, it is the Department of Labor that is forcing the raise in pay. Anyone know why they would do that? Why wouldn't they get paid minimum wage? Do they have a sponsor/agency that assists and they get part of that money? Since these are guest workers they and their employers, they wouldn't pay into the Social Security program would they? How are income taxes handled? I know most of the jobs under H2B probably aren't paying high enough to have to pay taxes. Just seems to me if it is becoming a hassle and the employers are being asked to up wages, why would anyone want to mess with it? I can understand in some areas where there are too many good paying jobs and help is hard to find, but in other areas are they being hired because of payroll savings from no contributions to social security and income taxes? Just trying to learn more about it so I can send an educated opinion to my legilatures.

    Thanks!

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  11. Nuckolls Trenton B
    Nuckolls Trenton B avatar
    8/14/2013 7:08 AM
    We have used this program for almost 8 years now it is a great benefit to us. For some reason where we are we can not find local workers to fill these spots on our crew. Honestly they just don't want to do manual labor. We have a 36 hole facility we have 11 full time year round workers and 13 H2B seasonal workers. The 2 most important things to us is that the H2B workers show up for work everyday that that are here and we do not have to lay off locals in the winter. The wage rule is strictly coming from the Department of Labor "just because they think they can" These workers do pay federal, state, and social security taxes. The DOL is just trying to kill the program without realizing that the government has made it to where no one really has to work anymore so they would rather sit at home and collect a check than to work on a golf course when its 100+ degrees outside. This program is a life saver to us! WE use an agency to help with our paperwork to process our H2B employees they in no way profit from the wages that the H2B workers make in fact they help us to fight back about the wage increase. Our biggest grip is how can they dictate to us what we have to pay these workers when we don't even have to pay American workers as much as they make. Fed min wage is $7.50, we pay H2B workers $8.36, the DOL is now saying that we have to pay them $10.81 per hour because that is the average wage paid in our area. There is absolutely no way that is accurate and from the few responses I have gotten I don't believe that there are many golf course crews members out there that make $10.81. Mel I hope that I answered most of your questions.



  12. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/15/2013 1:08 PM
    Trenton Nuckolls said: We have used this program for almost 8 years now it is a great benefit to us. For some reason where we are we can not find local workers to fill these spots on our crew. Honestly they just don't want to do manual labor. We have a 36 hole facility we have 11 full time year round workers and 13 H2B seasonal workers. The 2 most important things to us is that the H2B workers show up for work everyday that that are here and we do not have to lay off locals in the winter. The wage rule is strictly coming from the Department of Labor "just because they think they can" These workers do pay federal, state, and social security taxes. The DOL is just trying to kill the program without realizing that the government has made it to where no one really has to work anymore so they would rather sit at home and collect a check than to work on a golf course when its 100+ degrees outside. This program is a life saver to us! WE use an agency to help with our paperwork to process our H2B employees they in no way profit from the wages that the H2B workers make in fact they help us to fight back about the wage increase. Our biggest grip is how can they dictate to us what we have to pay these workers when we don't even have to pay American workers as much as they make. Fed min wage is $7.50, we pay H2B workers $8.36, the DOL is now saying that we have to pay them $10.81 per hour because that is the average wage paid in our area. There is absolutely no way that is accurate and from the few responses I have gotten I don't believe that there are many golf course crews members out there that make $10.81. Mel I hope that I answered most of your questions.


    Thanks Trent for the information, I would like to know is the DOL saying that is the average wage per hour for that type of work? Sounds similar to the prevalling wage that is written into most contracts when doing work for government indenties. I don't always agree with that (despite my liberal leanings) because then we could save money on infrastructure spending, but I also understand not wanting unqualified employees doing work on my behalf.

    Also why would the DOL care? Why don't they start demanding raising the minimum wage too? Do they want a better wage paid since these employees would not recieve any type of asstenance? Is the DOL trying to discourage H2B workers and maybe wanting jobs opening up to all those on unemployment? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    I do think the biggest reason though to not allow the DOL to raise wages in the middle of a season, (well for the golf course industry anyway) is golf courses have already budgeted the original wage for the season, and to force a change in mid season just makes it hard on the indivdual golf courses. I think that is what I will say in my action letter.

    Thanks again, would be interested to see this debated more, maybe in the 19th hole?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  13. Nuckolls Trenton B
    Nuckolls Trenton B avatar
    8/15/2013 1:08 PM
    Mel
    What is the 19th hole? And yes it would be interesting to get others opinion on this matter. Honestly I don't know why the DOL even cares. I don't know about how any other golf courses file for workers but ours come under in the category of Landscape Laborers, to my knowledge there is not a separate golf course laborer category. So yes the DOL says that the average for our area is $10.81 an hour. Which I just don't think that is true at all if it is all of our guys should quit and go work for a landscape company! But at the start of our season we were told they have to be paid at least $8.36 per hour so it is unfair and unreasonable to up their wage and back track mid-season. Maybe the DOL does think that these jobs could go to people collecting unemployment but goes back to the fact some Not all don't want to work. One season years ago we couldn't get our workers for 8 spots on the crew we went through 40 local people. To this day only 1 of those guys is still with us. This is our problem with this area and is why we use H2B. The system is broken but hopefully the judges will rule against the prevail wage rule again and we wont have to worry about it. But another thing is not all of our workers make the $8.36 we have some that make more. We base our wages for them on how many years they have been working for us some for 8 years now make $9.50 but newbies make the lowest. Also our problem we haven't been able to give raises for a few years now due to the down economy....



  14. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/15/2013 2:08 PM
    Trent,

    I'm talking about the 19th hole section of the GCSAA board here. It's were we discuss politics, it's been very quite since the election in November.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  15. Joe Wachter
    Joe Wachter avatar
    5 posts
    8/22/2013 2:08 PM
    Trent,

    My seasonal guys make between 9-11 per hour. My full time guys are in a union and do make a wage with overtime that brings them between 35-40k per season. Definitely well above the summer help staff. Its a pretty small staff compared to most in my area but with my full-time workers who have been here no less than 12 years, its almost like having 2-3 2nd assistants.



  16. Ryan Otto
    Ryan Otto avatar
    0 posts
    11/16/2013 11:11 AM
    We've recently expanded to 18 holes located in a small community. I was going to look into H2B seasonal workers could any of you in this thread give me an idea as to where to start this process. Is there a national agency or is it a state agency you contact. Thanks for the help everyone.



  17. Andrew Cross
    Andrew Cross avatar
    5 posts
    11/16/2013 11:11 AM
    Never used it, but it was briefly mentioned at a chapter meeting that you can expect to pay those H2B employees about $15/hr.



  18. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    11/16/2013 12:11 PM
    Trenton Nuckolls said: We have used this program for almost 8 years now it is a great benefit to us. For some reason where we are we can not find local workers to fill these spots on our crew. Honestly they just don't want to do manual labor. We have a 36 hole facility we have 11 full time year round workers and 13 H2B seasonal workers. The 2 most important things to us is that the H2B workers show up for work everyday that that are here and we do not have to lay off locals in the winter. The wage rule is strictly coming from the Department of Labor "just because they think they can" These workers do pay federal, state, and social security taxes. The DOL is just trying to kill the program without realizing that the government has made it to where no one really has to work anymore so they would rather sit at home and collect a check than to work on a golf course when its 100+ degrees outside. This program is a life saver to us! WE use an agency to help with our paperwork to process our H2B employees they in no way profit from the wages that the H2B workers make in fact they help us to fight back about the wage increase. Our biggest grip is how can they dictate to us what we have to pay these workers when we don't even have to pay American workers as much as they make. Fed min wage is $7.50, we pay H2B workers $8.36, the DOL is now saying that we have to pay them $10.81 per hour because that is the average wage paid in our area. There is absolutely no way that is accurate and from the few responses I have gotten I don't believe that there are many golf course crews members out there that make $10.81. Mel I hope that I answered most of your questions.


    Pay them each $50/hr. Problem solved. Well, until you go out of business and there are no jobs. But you'll have paid them $50/hr.



  19. James Gray
    James Gray avatar
    1 posts
    1/21/2014 4:01 PM
    southern Illinois

    lowest $8.50
    highest $10.00



  20. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    1/21/2014 11:01 PM
    James Gray said: southern Illinois

    lowest $8.50
    highest $10.00


    Shhhhhhh.....…quiet........don't tell anybody, but that's what I was making 32 years ago on a golf course maintenance crew.



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