Forum Groups

 

Forums / Talking it Over / Capitalism gone soft

Capitalism gone soft

22 posts
  1. Larry Allan
    Larry Allan avatar
    0 posts
    8/15/2011 10:08 AM
    D=Mc2, I thought you especially might find this interesting. It sounds like that communists Bill Gates may be infecting Warren with his ideas


    Stop Coddling the Super-Rich
    By WARREN E. BUFFETT

    Omaha

    OUR leaders have asked for "shared sacrifice." But when they did the asking, they spared me. I checked with my mega-rich friends to learn what pain they were expecting. They, too, were left untouched.

    While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks. Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as "carried interest," thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they'd been long-term investors.

    These and other blessings are showered upon us by legislators in Washington who feel compelled to protect us, much as if we were spotted owls or some other endangered species. It's nice to have friends in high places.

    Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that's actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.

    If you make money with money, as some of my super-rich friends do, your percentage may be a bit lower than mine. But if you earn money from a job, your percentage will surely exceed mine — most likely by a lot.

    To understand why, you need to examine the sources of government revenue. Last year about 80 percent of these revenues came from personal income taxes and payroll taxes. The mega-rich pay income taxes at a rate of 15 percent on most of their earnings but pay practically nothing in payroll taxes. It's a different story for the middle class: typically, they fall into the 15 percent and 25 percent income tax brackets, and then are hit with heavy payroll taxes to boot.

    Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.

    I didn't refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what's happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.

    Since 1992, the I.R.S. has compiled data from the returns of the 400 Americans reporting the largest income. In 1992, the top 400 had aggregate taxable income of $16.9 billion and paid federal taxes of 29.2 percent on that sum. In 2008, the aggregate income of the highest 400 had soared to $90.9 billion — a staggering $227.4 million on average — but the rate paid had fallen to 21.5 percent.

    The taxes I refer to here include only federal income tax, but you can be sure that any payroll tax for the 400 was inconsequential compared to income. In fact, 88 of the 400 in 2008 reported no wages at all, though every one of them reported capital gains. Some of my brethren may shun work but they all like to invest. (I can relate to that.)

    I know well many of the mega-rich and, by and large, they are very decent people. They love America and appreciate the opportunity this country has given them. Many have joined the Giving Pledge, promising to give most of their wealth to philanthropy. Most wouldn't mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering.

    Twelve members of Congress will soon take on the crucial job of rearranging our country's finances. They've been instructed to devise a plan that reduces the 10-year deficit by at least $1.5 trillion. It's vital, however, that they achieve far more than that. Americans are rapidly losing faith in the ability of Congress to deal with our country's fiscal problems. Only action that is immediate, real and very substantial will prevent that doubt from morphing into hopelessness. That feeling can create its own reality.

    Job one for the 12 is to pare down some future promises that even a rich America can't fulfill. Big money must be saved here. The 12 should then turn to the issue of revenues. I would leave rates for 99.7 percent of taxpayers unchanged and continue the current 2-percentage-point reduction in the employee contribution to the payroll tax. This cut helps the poor and the middle class, who need every break they can get.

    But for those making more than $1 million — there were 236,883 such households in 2009 — I would raise rates immediately on taxable income in excess of $1 million, including, of course, dividends and capital gains. And for those who make $10 million or more — there were 8,274 in 2009 — I would suggest an additional increase in rate.

    My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It's time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice.

    Warren E. Buffett is the chairman and chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway.



  2. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    8/15/2011 11:08 AM
    Stop Coddling the Super-Rich
    By WARREN E. BUFFETT

    ............

    "Most wouldn't mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering......"

    Red,

    How about if they "wouldn't nind being told" to pay more in taxes, they just give it voluntarily? I think that's legal in the USA. If you think you're not taxed enough already, just donate it to the Treasury. I'm sure they'll put it to good use.



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/15/2011 11:08 AM
    Pete, so those that have a conscience decides to give more in taxes, will that fix the deficit? I don't think so. And for those that don't want to donate, what are they going to do with all the money, go out and create jobs? I doubt that.

    Congress needs to grow a pair and work on the revenue side as well as the debt side.

    I read that there is pressure for those 12 on the committee, because if they don't get things done, then defense takes a big hit, they all have defense contracts in their states, they lose those contracts, a lot of people are out of work. Just look at NASA. And wasn't someone saying last week that the government doesn't create jobs?

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Rosenthal Gregg
    Rosenthal Gregg avatar
    8/15/2011 11:08 AM
    I don't understand you find something wrong with Mr Buffet wanting to contribute to maintaining his country more than others (paying his percentage to protect the debt)? Or that because he makes more and easily can contribute more something is wrong with it (those rich guys can pay off politicians to vote against taxing the wealthy)? Is this a non capitalist ideology for a billionaire? There is nothing communistic about his message, in fact I find it to be truly patriotic for one with his wealth to want to keep his country strong and share with his fellow Americans of lesser means. If I am not mistaken it is those of lesser means defending Mr Buffet's capitalistic rights that make him a billionaire, that is his reasoning and message as I read it! He is no Dummy , protect his investment and his country, stay a Billionaire! Plain and simple logic to me.......no socialism or communism here just plain humanitarianism and American loyalty to the union!



  5. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/15/2011 12:08 PM
    I did say, Mel, that government doesn't create jobs -- and you can read all about my reasoning and how no one posted anything refuting it. But, that's not the point here.

    Buffett's making a lot of subjective statements here and assumes that everyone at his income level necessarily thinks the same way, feels the same way, and should not have the freedom to disagree with Buffett. Should we assume that all golf course superintendents making $x/yr can and should pay more taxes this year than last, simply because one superintendent says he can afford it? Even if we taxed at 100% all the income sources of ALL US citizens, we still couldn't pay off our debt. I htink we have a strong ideological struggle here: do you have the freedom to own resources, or do you simply get to hold resources with permission of the government?

    Perhaps Buffett could spend his time making the world better with his own resources instead of trying to tell everyone else what to do with their assets.



  6. Wahlin Scott B
    Wahlin Scott B avatar
    8/15/2011 12:08 PM
    jkauffm1 said: I did say, Mel, that government doesn't create jobs -- and you can read all about my reasoning and how no one posted anything refuting it.


    There were posts refuting your position. You are so set in your position that you did not recognize that.



  7. Rosenthal Gregg
    Rosenthal Gregg avatar
    8/15/2011 12:08 PM
    Please also keep in mind guys in the economic zone of mega millions do not worry about supporting families. You can never compare a high and low paid super for instance as intimated on the same basis as these guys. One may be single at low wage and do fine and one with 6 figs. has 6 kids and struggles no way to compare. Billionaires do not have such worries and Mr Buffet does understand this very well and he knows his fellow income level friends do so as well. These guys should never complain about paying an extra few bucks in taxes or whatever to support our/there country, its defense, economy, their right to do business, or their place in society. They live in La La land we support and protect it, we need them to drive our economy and they need us to turn the wheels of capitalistic economy they invest in...this is how it works. There will always be a tiered system some at the very top and going down, our hope and goal is to even out the bottom so as to eliminate the poorest end and promote work and middle income for the majority..we hope. Some will always not want to work or drag behind but those that want to work and be a part of society are the ones we want to care for and support, that is the goal of a true working class, American middle class society! It may be called social democracy, no one is trying to keep successful people down just the opposite, but never to depress those who want to work!



  8. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/15/2011 1:08 PM
    jk,

    I will just say that I tend to look at it differently then you. If I understand what you are saying, is for example. We need weapons for defense, since the defense dept. does not make it's own weapons, they hire contractors to make the weapons for them. So in reality the contractors make the jobs, that is what I think you are saying. So if the defense dept. made their own weapons would the employees they hired to make the weapons be govt. employees so in essence they did create jobs? What about the soldier, they are hired to protect the nation, the govt. created that job and that employee. That is how I see it.

    In my other response to defense contractors, they are some huge employers, and as I said, it will be interesting what the gang of 12 come up with to save those jobs. Now Boeing, does have other work besides the government contracts. They have airlines ordering planes as well as the Air Force ordering tankers, but some of these contractors are relying on the government to provide a market for their weapons systems.

    Like I see it and view it, the government has created those jobs by being a customer wanting a product. Just like me being a customer wanting a new car.

    If you don't see it that way, I have to respect that. Just don't expect my vote when you run for office.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  9. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    8/15/2011 2:08 PM
    I say let Buffet and Gates pony up big on a voluntary basis if it makes them feel better. Last I checked, nearly everything involved with both men is tied up in foundations that get huge tax breaks. All these tax breaks have been provided by senators and congress critters of both parties for years. They created the problem and now want to come back to us because they gave a way too many breaks to the corporations and the exceptionally wealthy. I have a better idea. Start tomorrow and make every government agency including cabinet level positions justify their existence. Get rid of everything that cannot be reasonably justified. When they eliminate all the duplicate agencies, truly get the corruption out of social security, medicare and medicade, quit paying themselves pensions for life for minimal years of service and truly know how much is needed, then we can see if anything extra is needed. This is a government that goes up 8% automatically in budget each year. Can any of you say you have that benefit at your golf course? Learn to manage before you ask me for another dime. All of us have to manage our limited resources so how in the world do you guys feel it is ok to give government a pass and just tax more? It is our money, not the governments! Get the government out of the way and growth will happen quickly, unlike what is happening now! So Buffet and Gates, give until your hearts are content but leave the rest of us out of the conversation until the clowns that created the mess clean up what they have caused!



  10. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    8/15/2011 3:08 PM
    wahlins said:
    jkauffm1 said: I did say, Mel, that government doesn't create jobs -- and you can read all about my reasoning and how no one posted anything refuting it.


    There were posts refuting your position. You are so set in your position that you did not recognize that.


    Maybe I missed it but I didn't see your rebuttal to JK on that topic.



  11. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    8/15/2011 4:08 PM
    This is a great argument for a flat tax. Neither the low income nor the high income pay what the middle class does, percentage-wise. Put everyone on the same rate, regardless of entitlements, of say 33%. If it doesn't solve anything at least it would be fair.



  12. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    8/15/2011 4:08 PM
    A flat tax/ consumption tax is probably the most realistic solution. We would pick up the underground economy and everyone would participate. We still need to tackle the multi-billions of annual government waste. It only takes some will and common sense rather than class warfare and blaming the evil corporations and those horrible greedy rich people. Drop corporate tax rates to zero and watch how fast many of these corporations are back in the U.S. With a flat or consumption tax, just think of the extra money that would flow in! This mess could be solved rapidly but we would still need to control spending so we don't keep adding to the debt.



  13. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/15/2011 5:08 PM
    BallMark said: jk,

    I will just say that I tend to look at it differently then you. If I understand what you are saying, is for example. We need weapons for defense, since the defense dept. does not make it's own weapons, they hire contractors to make the weapons for them. So in reality the contractors make the jobs, that is what I think you are saying. So if the defense dept. made their own weapons would the employees they hired to make the weapons be govt. employees so in essence they did create jobs? What about the soldier, they are hired to protect the nation, the govt. created that job and that employee. That is how I see it.

    In my other response to defense contractors, they are some huge employers, and as I said, it will be interesting what the gang of 12 come up with to save those jobs. Now Boeing, does have other work besides the government contracts. They have airlines ordering planes as well as the Air Force ordering tankers, but some of these contractors are relying on the government to provide a market for their weapons systems.

    Like I see it and view it, the government has created those jobs by being a customer wanting a product. Just like me being a customer wanting a new car.

    If you don't see it that way, I have to respect that. Just don't expect my vote when you run for office.


    I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'll comment briefly, I suppose. Remember, I said only that governments do not create jobs -- I never said that they don't employ people. Businesses create wealth by producing goods or services worth more than their cost. That wealth is used to create (actually make) jobs from whense no wealth was available to do such previously.

    For example, let's say the owner of a widget manufacturer makes enough money on each widget sold to pay himself and have some left over. He may use that left over money to hire an engineer to make widget accessories. If the widget accessories are desirable and people buy them, enough wealth can be amassed to add a widget accessory production line, which consists of multiple workers. This business has created jobs.

    But, with the military as your example, money must be taken from the widget maker to pay the soldier. Without passing judgment on the intrinsic value of the soldier's duties, we can say for certain that he doesn't make or sell products and, thus, doesn't create wealth. He does consume products (food, weapons, etc), but accounting tells us that his ability to consume can't exceed the dollar value of his employment. Thus, the money that was taken from the widget maker to fund the soldier necessarily produces less than it would if it were used to make widget accessories (since nothing of dollar value was added to the economy).

    Now, understand that this only accounts for dollars and doesn't account for emotional things, like intrinsic value, honoring our soldiers, or the value of protection. Those certainly are important, but don't play a role in the economics of creating jobs.

    You do bring up another interesting point, which is private sector jobs servicing the government. These jobs certainly do add value to their products, but their source of revenue is often that money that could have been used in the pre-government private sector.

    In short, the private sector produces value with its money, while the government merely takes money out of the economy's right-hand pocket and puts it in the left-hand pocket, without producing value. Thus, jobs are not created, merely redistributed.

    Now, back to Warren Buffett ....



  14. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/15/2011 5:08 PM
    One last thing, Mel, I like your analogy:

    Like I see it and view it, the government has created those jobs by being a customer wanting a product. Just like me being a customer wanting a new car.

    But, I think it misses how you came up with the money and the purpose it served. When you buy a car, you are using money that you made while producing something of value (remember, goods and services are produced for those who produce). But, when the government buys a car, it uses money that was taken out of production. It didn't produce something -- it took away someone else's ability to produce something. Thus, each dollar spent by the government has two costs -- the actual dollar value, and the production that could have been made with that dollar. Coming our of your own pocket, the production is already known and accounted for (its what you did to earn it).

    Remember, the issue is not whether the government employs people 9it does), but whether is CREATES jobs. That it does not.



  15. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    8/15/2011 5:08 PM
    jkauffm1 said: One last thing, Mel, I like your analogy:

    Like I see it and view it, the government has created those jobs by being a customer wanting a product. Just like me being a customer wanting a new car.

    But, I think it misses how you came up with the money and the purpose it served. When you buy a car, you are using money that you made while producing something of value (remember, goods and services are produced for those who produce). But, when the government buys a car, it uses money that was taken out of production. It didn't produce something-- it took away someone else's ability to produce something. Thus, each dollar spent by the government has two costs -- the actual dollar value, and the production that could have been made with that dollar. Coming our of your own pocket, the production is already known and accounted for (its what you did to earn it).

    Remember, the issue is not whether the government employs people 9it does), but whether is CREATES jobs. That it does not.


    But I look at it as the government did produce something, a job, due to it's need as a customer for that car. If the government doesn't buy something, then the jobs that would have been needed to create something such as the vehicle or let's say fighter jet, wouldn't be needed thus jobs lost. Now the question is did the government really need that fighter jet?

    I get my money from government because we are providing a service that citizens pay for, (greens fees) the government decided to provide this service to it's citizens. The government providing golf for it's citizens is a different topic for debate, but because citizens use our service, my job was created to provide this service. Thus government created a job.

    JK, like I say we view it differently. And/or maybe this needs to be a different thread.

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  16. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    8/15/2011 7:08 PM
    BallMark said: Pete, so those that have a conscience decides to give more in taxes, will that fix the deficit?

    Oh, I see now. Those that give more money freely than what they are required have a coscience, and those that don't give more money freely do not? You don't really think that Warren Buffet believes the government will do something better with more of his money than he could do with it on his own, do you?

    And for those that don't want to donate, what are they going to do with all the money, ....?

    That's the part that I always thought - and continue to believe - is none of my business or yours. Why in the world do you beleive that you have any right to decide what someone does "with all their money" that the government doesn't already take?


    Mel



  17. Kauffman John M
    Kauffman John M avatar
    8/16/2011 8:08 AM
    BallMark said:
    jkauffm1 said: One last thing, Mel, I like your analogy:

    Like I see it and view it, the government has created those jobs by being a customer wanting a product. Just like me being a customer wanting a new car.

    But, I think it misses how you came up with the money and the purpose it served. When you buy a car, you are using money that you made while producing something of value (remember, goods and services are produced for those who produce). But, when the government buys a car, it uses money that was taken out of production. It didn't produce something-- it took away someone else's ability to produce something. Thus, each dollar spent by the government has two costs -- the actual dollar value, and the production that could have been made with that dollar. Coming our of your own pocket, the production is already known and accounted for (its what you did to earn it).

    Remember, the issue is not whether the government employs people 9it does), but whether is CREATES jobs. That it does not.



    But I look at it as the government did produce something, a job, due to it's need as a customer for that car. If the government doesn't buy something, then the jobs that would have been needed to create something such as the vehicle or let's say fighter jet, wouldn't be needed thus jobs lost. Now the question is did the government really need that fighter jet?

    I get my money from government because we are providing a service that citizens pay for, (greens fees) the government decided to provide this service to it's citizens. The government providing golf for it's citizens is a different topic for debate, but because citizens use our service, my job was created to provide this service. Thus government created a job.

    JK, like I say we view it differently. And/or maybe this needs to be a different thread.


    I understand where you're coming from, Mel, and I agree that maybe we should discuss this in another thread, so we don't put everyone else to sleep with boring economic conversation :)

    But, I think you're swatting at flies while the elephants are coming to run you over. When government takes money out of the economy (taxes), it takes away the ability to use that money to produce something of higher value (create wealth). So, the tax money they use for your salary only pays your salary. If it had been allowed to remain in the economy, it could have been used to make a car (for example), which would have (hopefully) generated a positive ROI, which would have likely more than one job -- the people workign in the factory, sales people, etc. When that money is taken out of the economy via taxation, it can only fund one job and doesn't have as high a ROI as the one that produced value added products, which can fund more than one job.

    I have worked for the government, too, and I understand that they provided me a salary, but I know that it came at the expense of whatever someone else could have done with it. When thinking about the military, a particular job at a supplier might be sacrificed if the military doesn't make a particular purchase, but that money will provide at least as many private sector jobs when left in the private sector. If we buy fewer bombs and need fewer bomb makers (and adjust taxes accordingly), that money doesn't disappear, but it is available for investment and jobs in other industries. We may have fewer bomb making jobs, but we will have more jobs doing something else.

    While it is tempting to think that a bomb making job had been created, it really only had been redistributed. Only when you can generate a positive ROI and make a job not at the expense of another, you can truly create a job. Otherwise, you're just repurposing and redistributing -- taking out of one pocket and putting into another.



  18. Steve Nelson
    Steve Nelson avatar
    0 posts
    8/16/2011 9:08 AM
    I like the fact that someone like Buffet is pointing out that the middle class is getting hammered in this country. It's not just taxes though, we try to do right by our families and in the process get gouged on health insuance, college tuition, property & local taxes just to name a few. He's right that something ought to be done to make things more fair. Many here have complained about the welfare state we live in, he's just pointing out that the rich and corporations have received welfare as well. Just as we all debate the true need of some of the social welfare programs for the poor, he's questioning the need for corporate give aways and tax breaks for the very wealthy. What he is proposing is by no means a total solution, but he's right in saying it must be part of the solution.

    Non related query for John the Economist: If government uses it's soldiers to plunder the wealth of other nations, ala the vikings, has it not created value greater than the initial investment and in doing so is the government not an economic engine creating all sorts of jobs?



  19. McCallum David K
    McCallum David K avatar
    8/16/2011 11:08 AM
    One of our problems have always been the tax codes. What Mr Buffet fails to mention as he tells us to pay more is he took full advantage of the tax code( and the loopholes). If he merely took his flat deduction for himself and assuming he is still married for his wife........all his kids are grown and have their own millions now, he in fact based on his income would have paid a lot more than 21.5%.........he also would have been in that 36-41% income tax bracket that some of his employees find themselves in.
    Have some interesting numbers from the Congressional Budget Office when I have time to post them. And we all know the liberals agree, if the CBO says it............it's gospel.



  20. Sandy Clark
    Sandy Clark avatar
    0 posts
    8/17/2011 9:08 AM
    How about if we get rid of all farm subsidies and other similar government subsidies and immediately eliminate or reduce foreign aid to nearly every country. We pay people not to grow crops. The government tries to pay you to buy an electric car. Do things like this make sense in today's world. That must be asked about every government program and agency. Maybe you had a purpose at one time but is your existence valid today. It all needs to be honestly reviewed



  21. Ronald Conard
    Ronald Conard avatar
    4 posts
    8/17/2011 9:08 AM
    sandy1 said: How about if we get rid of all farm subsidies and other similar government subsidies and immediately eliminate or reduce foreign aid to nearly every country. We pay people not to grow crops. The government tries to pay you to buy an electric car. Do things like this make sense in today's world. That must be asked about every government program and agency. Maybe you had a purpose at one time but is your existence valid today. It all needs to be honestly reviewed


    Sandy,

    I agree to a degree but I think we need to keep our good standing (what's left of it) in the world community.

    "Giving is good even if one has little."



  22. Rosenthal Gregg
    Rosenthal Gregg avatar
    8/17/2011 1:08 PM
    Ron, Sandy,

    The whole wonderful thing is you are both correct, all these ideas and programs need review, tweaking and adjustment. We here can even agree to disagree nicely and in good form. However when it comes to our politicians and those who need to really do this work, and it is the work we elect/pay them to do! They fail to get it done! They cannot agree to disagree, compromise, come to a happy middle ground or do what is best for the majority! No they fight, stick up for those who give them the most (the campaign funders big pocket guys on both sides!) and who are the losers? All of the rest of us the Nice American people on both sides who usually can disagree on subjects, but do agree on our heritage and national identity..is that confusing or what? HOW DO WE FIX THAT? It is a sad state our politics is in these days as I see it no matter what....



View or change your forums profile here.