Quality of cut issues on greens Cancel The title field is required!

1. Johnson Aaron M

   
   6/5/2015 10:06 PM

   Hey everyone:
   I have been wrestling with poor quality of cut on my greens this season. It seems like the rear reel always looks like a different stripe, but is set identical to the other 2. Not a whole lot difference in clipping yield either. This is on a jac GK IV, low profile knives HoC at .130 11 blade reels.
   Also, I am seeing some darker lines that I am assuming is from tearing the leaf blades. For the life of me I cant get my reels to cut paper all the way across. On every reel, it seems like the outsides cut nicely, but the middle just waves. I think my darker stripes are due to the edges getting pre-maturely worn and ripping the grass blades rather than a clean cut. We set the reels to .002 with a feeler gauge, but can sometimes still hear a small light contact. These reels were all fresh spin ground, with new bedknives with a light grind on them to true them to the bedknife shoe. I experimented by tightening the bedknife to reel contact tight enough to get the entire length of the bedknife to cut paper, then backlapping on the bench with 150 grit compound, washing it very well, and mowing at that setting. I dont know if i did more harm than good with this experiment so any advice would be great.
   It was mentioned to me that when the Foley 610 and 600 grinders came to this golf course, the past mechanic swore that one of the traverse rods wither on the spin grinder or the bedknife grinder was out of true, because he could never get the reels to cut in the middle either. Im not blaming the poor quality of cut on the machines, but that was just some more information!!!
   Any helpful hints, pointers, or general grinding information would be great.

   
   
   
   
2. Louis Boudreau

   

   0 posts
   
   6/6/2015 12:06 AM

   This is tough without being there. But here is something to look at. It may be that your bed bar pivot bolts are adjusted to tight. This would cause the bed bar to bow just enough to do exactly what you are saying. I hope this helps.

   
   
   
   
3. Johnson Aaron M

   
   6/6/2015 5:06 AM

   I haven't read anywhere that tells the ft lb or in lb for the bedbar bolts. How tight should they be?

   
   
   
   
4. Henry Heinz

   

   0 posts
   
   6/6/2015 7:06 AM

   Get a machined straight edge bar from Snap-On or Mac tools and hold it on the top face of the bedknife and use a light behind it, if the knife is being ground on a machine that is out of adjustment it will show you. If the knife is truly straight, then pi-tape your reels in four different spots to see if you're barrel or hourglass shaped from the reel grinder. You can also use a large caliper, or one with a guide that rest on the blades and will measure to the center shaft. I prefer measuring from the outer edges of the reel where its ground at. You can buy .001 shim stock and place some under the knife when screwing it down to the shoe to shim it out and make up the difference so that you can cut all the way across the unit. Years ago Toro had shims for the 7 screw knives. I had a bedknife grinder that had bowed rails and did exactly the same thing as what you have happening now, and the company replaced it because they could never figure it out.
   
   Regards,

   
   
   
   
5. James Smith

   

   112 posts
   
   6/6/2015 8:06 AM

   Is it possibly that the reel speed on the back reel may not be the same as the front reels. Have you tried switching the middle reel with one of the front reels to see if it makes a different. I remember that I use to get the darker lines from my middle reel but it turned out to be where the front and middle reel overlap.
   I know I almost always have issues with lower HOC's during my peak growing season. .130" is pretty low and unless you have the thinnest bedknife available it would drag on the turf which could cause issues.
   
   I am not sure how a spin grinder can cause the reels to cut on the outsides and not the middle. I can understand that it could cause one side of the reel to be ground smaller then the other but not the middle. This seems to be the same logic with the bedknife. I can see where placing a bind on the edges could maybe throw it out of whack to some extent. I have had reels that were worn cut more on the outside then in the middle and almost every time this happened it turned out to be the lip on the outer edge of the bedknife that does not get worn down because it does not make contact with the reel. You need to manually grind these down or out and then lap the reels but only use compound on the outer edges to work those edges back down.
   It takes a while to grind them like this but eventually you will be able to add grinding compound across the whole reel as they start to make more contact.

   
   
   
   
6. Roland McPhearson

   

   9 posts
   
   6/6/2015 10:06 AM

   Don't know the specs but I'd guesstimate 25 ft/lbs on the bedbar pivot bolts for your gk. Another possible cause of not cutting in the middle is a coned reel resulting in the bedbar/bed knife twisting as it's being adjusted up to the reel.

   
   
   
   
7. Johnson Aaron M

   
   6/6/2015 2:06 PM

   P.S. where can I order a good PI tape, I know the igcema had one but they are not part of the GCSAA

   
   
   
   
8. Johnson Aaron M

   
   6/6/2015 2:06 PM

   P.S. where can I order a good PI tape, I know the igcema had one but they are not part of the GCSAA

   
   
   
   
9. Mike Tanis

   

   5 posts
   
   6/6/2015 2:06 PM

   I got my pi tape from msc industries, a metal one, works great on 11 and 14 blade reels. I had same issues on my reels, not cutting in the middle, but we were using the anglemaster grinder from bernhard. It was slightly out of adjustment, there is an adjustable support bolt In The center of the rods and I adjusted the back one up a little at a time until bed knife cut clean all across when put back on reel, took a few times but worth it

   
   
   
   
10. Michael Kriz

    

    0 posts
    
    6/7/2015 9:06 AM

    Get your Pi tape (and other relevant supplies) here: http://turfaddict.com/

    
    
    
    
11. Johnson Aaron M

    
    6/7/2015 1:06 PM

    Mr. Kriz:
    Thanks for the reply!!!! Great speaking sessions at the NCTGA last winter!!!! Are you involved with turf addict.com?

    
    
    
    
12. Michael Kriz

    

    0 posts
    
    6/7/2015 3:06 PM

    Thanks Aaron, hope the Pi tape serves you well. Turf Addict is run by a colleague of mine, just sharing a useful link.

    
    
    
    
13. Henry Heinz

    

    0 posts
    
    6/8/2015 6:06 AM

    Just a note to James, reel and bedknife grinders have everything to do with the quality of cut and how a knife or reel is ground. Not many people take the time calibrate their machines. With an express or a Neary spinning by one large shaft, yes then a cone. However, bearings and harmonics can play a part in creating a barrel or hourglass shaped reel. Units such as Foley, SIP, and the angle master that travel on rails can come out of adjustment or be mis-adjusted creating a hump or dip for the carriage to travel on leading to this sort of cut issues with reels. We check our calibration at minimum twice a year on reel and bedknife grinders.
    
    Regards,

    
    
    
    
14. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    6/9/2015 12:06 PM

    Thanks Henry, sorry to say I am not familure with spin grinders since we have no budget. I have the older grinders that you have to move the grinding wheel by hand. I always tear my reels down to grind them so I have no issues with bearings. Im still old school I guess.
    
    I do enjoy learning new things though and maybe one day down the road I will get to use a spin grinder.

    
    
    
    
15. John Moore

    

    0 posts
    
    6/9/2015 1:06 PM

    James, if your going to do it old school then stick with old school practices. I started working here with a manual single blade grinder and no bedknife grinder. After grinding a reel I would always have to backlap to get the reel and bedknife to match-up. I would say backlap your cutting units and then adjust to light contact. Also just snug those bedbar mounting bolts.

    
    
    
    
16. Bob Pruneau

    

    5 posts
    
    6/10/2015 4:06 PM

    http://golfcoursemechanics.blogspot.ca/ ... g.html?m=1 This is how I corrected you old foley at my previous course . Also check reeks once their around 4.5 " their done at that HOC. Plus make sure the rear deck is dropping all the way or if you have a new operator to get them to hold the pedal down a little longer to make sure it travels all the way .

    
    
    
    
17. Johnson Aaron M

    
    7/6/2015 8:07 PM

    thank you everyone!
    We powered through it and dealt with a few weird lines for a while, greens didnt suffer and we used the bedknife buddy and A LOT of setting up to finally get them cutting paper all across. Im no mechanic, so I cant explain why this worked but it is for now.
    I was going to play with top face angles on my next grinding session, because it seems that when we went with a 6 degree negative angle that it wore prematurely, even with little to no contact. I was going to try a 2 degree angle because when I was visualizing this in my head, when you adjust the bedknife to reel contact, wouldn't it change the angle of the top face when you adjust to light contact? so if I grind at a 6 degree, and have to adjust quite often and touch up the front face, would the angle of the top face continually change?

    
    
    
    
18. Bob Pruneau

    

    5 posts
    
    7/7/2015 2:07 PM

    As the reel and Bedknive wear the angle does change . That's why on Bernard grinders you scratch the old face even and set the gauge to zero then adjust to your setting . In your case on a fairly good cutting knive adjust angle to scratch the upper edge ( outside to front ) to keep a proper angle on your top face . Otherwise you may be grinding 5 to 6 degrees more than you have to on a worn Bedknive .

    
    
    
    
19. Michael Kriz

    

    0 posts
    
    7/7/2015 3:07 PM

    Get a digital protractor and gage your after grind angle, you may find what you are setting your grinder at and the end result is different. I have had to "add" a few degrees to my grinder to get the angle I'm chasing. The cause can vary but make sure you are dressing your top face stone regularly. Grinding will wear the first 1/4" of your top face stone, affecting your grind angle. The digital protractor is small, and has magnets to hold in place but a bit of finesse is required as most top face grinds are small.

    
    
    
    
20. Johnson Aaron M

    
    7/7/2015 10:07 PM

    I was taking a sharpie and " blacking" top angle and then manually spinning the stone to put crescent shapes along the knife. The more of an arc I could get starting from back to front edge the better along it meant I was pretty close to the angle that was in the knife already. Used this way when I had out of box knives that I "trued" up to the shoe... made me wonder, if a bed knife and reel wear eachother, why would I want to keep the same angle even though they are wearing??? let me know if I was mis-informed... (and it wasn't you Mr. Kriz)

    
    
    
    
21. Kyle Sherwood

    

    0 posts
    
    7/8/2015 9:07 AM

    We have the same issues with all 30 of our Jacobsen reels. Call me if you would like to discuss. Cell phone (217) 341-5769
    
    
    Kyle Sherwood
    Golf Course Superintendent
    Illini Country Club
    Springfield, il

    
    
    
    
22. Bob Pruneau

    

    5 posts
    
    7/9/2015 1:07 PM

    Aaron M Johnson said: I was taking a sharpie and " blacking" top angle and then manually spinning the stone to put crescent shapes along the knife. The more of an arc I could get starting from back to front edge the better along it meant I was pretty close to the angle that was in the knife already. Used this way when I had out of box knives that I "trued" up to the shoe... made me wonder, if a bed knife and reel wear eachother, why would I want to keep the same angle even though they are wearing??? let me know if I was mis-informed... (and it wasn't you Mr. Kriz)

    
    lol .a new knife you would scratch even across the cut just to true it up .

    
    
    
    
23. Robert Searle

    

    0 posts
    
    7/15/2015 5:07 AM

    Also a good idea to make sure the hydraulic lines are relaxed in the mowing position. The rear unit on our GP400 had a wacky after cut appearance and it turned out the lines were pulling back on the unit so it was mowing cockeyed. Made the adjustments and the problem went away.