Vapor barrier in new greens construction, any thoughts? Cancel The title field is required!

1. Pamela Smith

   

   0 posts
   
   10/30/2018 4:10 PM

   Hello, installing a vapor barrier between the greens mix and native soil seems like a must have. I learned the hard way how wicking from finer textured soils cause hot spots especially around greens so I've always since insisted on vapor barriers in USGA greens construction.
   
   However, I cannot find anything research related to support that vapor barriers are essential. The question came up when someone said that vapor barriers could contribute to black layer near the barrier. I'm thinking that with proper grading, drainage, and irrigation managment this should not be the case but now wondering if this could happen.
   
   I'd be glad to hear your thoughts and experiences on the positives and negatives of vapor barriers in greens construction.
   
   Thanks
   Pam Smith
   City of Denver

   
   
   
   
2. Steve Datwyler

   

   2 posts
   
   10/30/2018 10:10 PM

   Pam,
   
   Our greens at Ravenna were constructed with a heavy duty plastic barrier and we do have black layer in the low areas where smile drains were not installed during original construction. While doing renovation work and building a couple new greens, I have tried both silt fence and landscape fabric as an interface between native soils and sand rootzone mix. Both were non-conventional materials used in greens construction, but it made sense that they would work, so I figured why not try something different. Both materials have performed well and allow water within the green to filter out and prevented the native soils from wicking moisture out of the sand rootzone. My thought is that the silt fence will probably hold up longer than the landscape fabric.

   
   
   
   
3. Keith Fellenstein

   

   0 posts
   
   11/1/2018 10:11 AM

   A barrier is not required. It does facilitate the building of the green cavity for the contractor, but ultimately, long term agronomic needs should be the driving force for or against a barrier.
   
   Having had bad experiences with a barrier, should you decide to include one, I would suggest additional drainage in the smile drain area/lowest elevation of the green, only using the barrier on the high side of the green and not in any lows, using a perforated barrier, or an unconventional material such as Steve has described.
   
   it has not been my experience that finer textured soils have wicked moisture from the green cavity causing dry spots -- I have heard anecdotal tales that that can happen. My experience is the other end of the spectrum where the barrier has prevented moisture from escaping in a timely fashion creating all sorts of problems (black layer being one of the more prominent and difficult to deal with).

   
   
   
   
4. James Smith

   

   112 posts
   
   12/6/2018 6:12 AM

   I have no first hand experience in this at all! I wanted to put that out as I am more on this thread to learn.
   
   I understand the theory behind the barrier. it sounds logical to a point but would you not have to install this deep under the sand layer as not to puncture it when deep aerifying? maybe the thought is you will not deep aerifye but what if you leave and somewhere down the road a Superintendent determines it is needed due to lack of drainage or whatever?
   
   If it is indeed installed deep how will it actually help hot spots that normally occur in the top section of the soil on peaks or high areas?
   
   If you were to use a barrier would a material like the Sand Dam fabric used in bunker Drainage permit enough drainage but still allow some moisture?
   
   As a 24 year Superintendent I would be leary of installing a material in my greens that could create a problem down the road. While I have been lucky enough to stay with my rebuilt TifEagle greens for 20 years I cannot say thats anywhere near the norm. Creating a problem down the road like this (if it were to become a problem) would be very costly to remedy! your basically stuck digging up the whole green, All of them!
   
   Like I first stated I am here for learning.
   
   Would it not be better to use an amendment to the soil in the locations you would normally expect hot spots? or throughout the whole green?
   
   While my greens started out as pushup greens, when we rebuilt them we tried to stay as close to USGA specs as financially possible. Yes I have hot spots here and there but they are mainly over the drain lines. If I was to build greens again I would install tracking wire next to my drain lines and after the greens was covered with sand I would track every drain line and the go over them with an amendment, working it into the top 4" of the drain line and 1' outside of it paying extra attention where they join together. I would also add some to my peaks. since I am in the south I would pay a lot attention to the peaks where the north wind hits the most because those are the worst hot spot areas I get in the winter time.
   
   I would love to hear feedback on this.