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Command vs peat

14 posts
  1. Jeff Lloyd
    Jeff Lloyd avatar
    0 posts
    7/18/2018 5:07 AM
    Hey Guys,

    I am going to be doing a greens renovation next spring and I am shopping peat vs profile vs command. I would like to get the heaviest mix possible (70/30-80/20). I have heard of guys topdressing with command but never incorporating in their greens mix at construction time and would love some feedback from guys that have done so or even guys that have used it. Good idea, cost-effective, and so on?

    Thanks,

    Jeff



  2. Steve Datwyler
    Steve Datwyler avatar
    2 posts
    7/24/2018 8:07 AM
    Jeff,

    I built 2 new practice greens and few tees using 90/10 w/Command compost in late 2017. I had great results with the grow-in and no issues with some of the larger 3/8" wood chips. Root depths are all the way to the pea gravel on greens. One initial concern that I had was getting an Organic N release during the warmer months, We had no growth surge but the greens did maintain color and minimal growth without additional N inputs. There was a cost savings using Command vs Peat but other than saving a few thousand dollars, I have always wondered why quality composts haven't become a more common practice with greens construction, so I thought I would try it, and have been happy with the results so far.



  3. Corey Eastwood
    Corey Eastwood avatar
    80 posts
    7/24/2018 11:07 AM
    Seems to me that the mix is a invitation to Fairy Ring down the line.

    Corey Eastwood CGCS, Stockton Golf & CC, Retired

  4. Robert Wagner
    Robert Wagner avatar
    2 posts
    7/25/2018 9:07 AM
    Corey Eastwood, CGCS said: Seems to me that the mix is a invitation to Fairy Ring down the line.


    Wondering the same thing, Corey.



  5. Keith Fellenstein
    Keith Fellenstein avatar
    0 posts
    7/25/2018 11:07 AM
    I won't be doing new greens anytime soon, but have been intrigued with the use / substitution of biochar for peat and poultry manure to assist with grow in. As for fairy ring, both courses here were re-done with traditional 80/20 and 90/10 with sand/peat, and we have been battling fairy ring from almost the beginning.



  6. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    7/26/2018 3:07 PM
    Keith Fellenstein said: I won't be doing new greens anytime soon, but have been intrigued with the use / substitution of biochar for peat and poultry manure to assist with grow in. As for fairy ring, both courses here were re-done with traditional 80/20 and 90/10 with sand/peat, and we have been battling fairy ring from almost the beginning.


    I would think the pathogen that causes fairy ring would dine on organic matter regardless of the source. I have seen it the worst on greens built with peat the first few years after construction. At least with Comand you have the microbes to break the organic down faster than it can accumulate. You're basically jump starting a sterile sand environment with beneficial bugs that have several benefits. Something that a typical biochar and peat can't provide. However, using a mix of compost and biochar would provides benefits of both products.



  7. Robert Wagner
    Robert Wagner avatar
    2 posts
    7/27/2018 10:07 AM
    Keith/Andy-
    Yeah, probably agree with your points. Ring is always an issue on new greens, no experience with command yet, but I know some who really dig it. Thanks for your thoughts.



  8. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    7/28/2018 9:07 AM
    We have seen serious fairy ring with the use of Comand. DO not plan to use in the future.



  9. Curtis Hoffman
    Curtis Hoffman avatar
    0 posts
    8/19/2018 12:08 PM
    I'm not familiar with Command, but I am very familiar with peat. For you guys down south, where is your peat sourced from? Its not all the same as most of you know. I'm not a salesman, but if you're using anything other than Dakota Peat, you're doing yourself a disservice in my opinion. I had some old greens that were built with a competitors peat, and had nothing but problems....fairy ring, black algae, silvery thread moss, poor drainage... Currently I have 4 greens that were built in 2010 to a modified USGA spec (per se) using a 90/10 sand/Dakota peat mix, and have had zero issue with fairy ring occurring. Last fall we rebuilt the remaining 14 as well as some new chipping greens with the same mix. We are very pleased with the results to say the least. We're growing a T1/Alpha blend in the upper Midwest. My two cents. Good luck

    Curtis Hoffman
    Assistant Golf Course Superintendent
    The Country Club of Sioux Falls
    Sioux Falls, SD



  10. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    8/19/2018 1:08 PM
    Andy Jorgensen said:
    Keith Fellenstein said: I won't be doing new greens anytime soon, but have been intrigued with the use / substitution of biochar for peat and poultry manure to assist with grow in. As for fairy ring, both courses here were re-done with traditional 80/20 and 90/10 with sand/peat, and we have been battling fairy ring from almost the beginning.


    I would think the pathogen that causes fairy ring would dine on organic matter regardless of the source. I have seen it the worst on greens built with peat the first few years after construction. At least with Comand you have the microbes to break the organic down faster than it can accumulate. You're basically jump starting a sterile sand environment with beneficial bugs that have several benefits. Something that a typical biochar and peat can't provide. However, using a mix of compost and biochar would provides benefits of both products.


    Sand is not sterile and there is ample scientific evidence to prove it. A quick Google search turned up this one by Dr. David Zuberer from Texas A&M University and published by the USGA in 2012;

    "In the soccer field study above, we found 100,000 bacteria per gram in the sand used to construct the rootzone.
    "

    http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?fil ... -20-12.pdf

    Also an excellent article by Dr. Alan Gange of the University of London and published by the Royal and Ancient in 2014. He states that we might manipulate perhaps 1% of soil microbes.

    https://golfcoursemanagement.randa.org/ ... Gange.aspx

    I think our ability to manage soil bacteria is too frequently overstated.



  11. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    8/21/2018 2:08 PM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:
    Andy Jorgensen said:
    Keith Fellenstein said: I won't be doing new greens anytime soon, but have been intrigued with the use / substitution of biochar for peat and poultry manure to assist with grow in. As for fairy ring, both courses here were re-done with traditional 80/20 and 90/10 with sand/peat, and we have been battling fairy ring from almost the beginning.


    I would think the pathogen that causes fairy ring would dine on organic matter regardless of the source. I have seen it the worst on greens built with peat the first few years after construction. At least with Comand you have the microbes to break the organic down faster than it can accumulate. You're basically jump starting a sterile sand environment with beneficial bugs that have several benefits. Something that a typical biochar and peat can't provide. However, using a mix of compost and biochar would provides benefits of both products.


    Sand is not sterile and there is ample scientific evidence to prove it. A quick Google search turned up this one by Dr. David Zuberer from Texas A&M University and published by the USGA in 2012;

    "In the soccer field study above, we found 100,000 bacteria per gram in the sand used to construct the rootzone.
    "

    http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?fil ... -20-12.pdf

    Also an excellent article by Dr. Alan Gange of the University of London and published by the Royal and Ancient in 2014. He states that we might manipulate perhaps 1% of soil microbes.

    https://golfcoursemanagement.randa.org/ ... Gange.aspx

    I think our ability to manage soil bacteria is too frequently overstated.


    I have have to argue the first article did not state the source of the material used to construct the soccer fields, but did mention that aerobic conditions must be present for microbial activity to occur. I'm not sure how much aerobic bacteria are present when my sand source for greens construction and topdressing comes from dredging operations to mine the sand from lakes in central Florida.

    I would also add the second article plainly states in the last paragraph:

    "So does turf need more microbes? I strongly suspect the answer is ‘yes', but only of the right type. Currently we do not know if the microbial community present lacks critical elements that might enable turf to resist drought or disease better. Should you use a microbial inoculant? It would probably do no harm and in many instances will be good, though it's not necessarily grass growth you need to enhance, otherwise you will be mowing it more often!"

    The second article also briefly touches on the applications of pesticides to the soil, and it's affect on soil microbial populations. It is highly recommended to get fungicides into the soil during application. So I question what affect these applications might have on the soil microbial population, especially with the use of Strobilurin and DMI fungicides.

    Although the first article addressed soil fumigation, it recommended adding back in native soil from the surrounding area. I would not suggest that for a number of reasons, but it least it stated "pathogen free". This article also did not touch on Curfew, a soil fumigant utilized for the control of plant parasitic nematodes, and the recommendation to only use quick release fertilizer after treatment due to the lack of Nitrogen fixing bacteria present.

    However, I do understand what each author was alluding to. And I agree that in an existing soil present on the golf course, yes, the soil microbial populations are probably pretty abundant. But I would also argue that the ancillary benefits received from compost applications are welcomed for the relatively low-cost



  12. Stephen Okula
    Stephen Okula avatar
    3 posts
    8/22/2018 3:08 AM
    Certain fungicide applications may or may not affect microbial populations, but so far I have seen no definitive evidence that it does, at least not with today's available products.

    This is another article that specifically studies the effects of azoxystrobin, tebuconazole (a DMI fungicide) and chlorothalonil on soil microbial populations. In this conclusion:

    "We conclude that there was no clear relationship between the responses of the different broad and fine scale
    microbial properties to the pesticides and that fungicide impacts on the different microbial properties were not predictable in terms of the size of the impact or the duration of the effect."

    (Bending,Rodrıguez-Cruz,Lincoln-University of Warwick, UK. 2006)

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.d ... muniti.pdf

    I'm sure I haven't read every study on the subject, and I would be interested to know if anyone has done any research demonstrating that modern fungicides do have a negative effect on beneficial soil organisms.



  13. Andy Jorgensen
    Andy Jorgensen avatar
    1 posts
    8/23/2018 9:08 AM
    Stephen Okula, CGCS said:

    I'm sure I haven't read every study on the subject, and I would be interested to know if anyone has done any research demonstrating that modern fungicides do have a negative effect on beneficial soil organisms.



    I couldn't open the article.

    But I too would be welcome to any other research performed on this topic since almost everything I have been told is based on anecdotal evidence.

    Until then, I'll keep plugging away with Comand applications. Just had 50 yards dropped off yesterday that will be applied to the rough and any weak areas needing it. Especially since we have seen the size of these area reduced the past few years due to Comand applications...



  14. Michael Hummel
    Michael Hummel avatar
    0 posts
    9/6/2018 12:09 PM
    Have you considered using Zeolite at 5% by volume?



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