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Salary Requirement

46 posts
  1. Matt Dutkiewicz
    Matt Dutkiewicz avatar
    0 posts
    1/6/2017 9:01 AM
    This topic has certainly taken off! Removing the requirement of a posted salary range is one of the symptoms of a potentially larger problem the GCSAA is heading towards. Quantity over quality. The GCSAA's reasoning for removing this requirement is to have more job postings. Ok, I understand the desire to have more postings, but if they are postings that are not informative, and not desirable to Members, it's something that should maybe be re-evaluated, right? For those of you who have heard what your Chapter Delegates have reported from the meeting back in October, there are more of these quantity over quality initiatives on the horizon. Membership drives to make almost anyone a member, which is again, somewhat understandable, as the GCSAA wants to grow and "brand" itself, and become a "player" with other organizations. But to what end? There were proposals of making a few groups who, clearly, have nothing to do with golf course turf, Members of a golf course turf association. I'm not sure what the benefit would be in an initiative like that. Additionally, it does certainly seem as though there has been a shift to focus on the high-end Members, whether its with awards, or publication articles, or Board members/candidates. This may be in an effort towards "branding", but it seems to have struck a chord with many Members who feel left out, ignored, or not appreciated. While these initiatives are certainly aimed at growing Membership numbers, they also seem to have the potential to dilute the quality of the overall association. I think there is an attempt to make the GCSAA a household name in the golf world, and that may or may not be a good thing, but I would hope that for the bulk of the Membership, their purpose for belonging to the association is not forgotten.



  2. Paul Hallock
    Paul Hallock avatar
    6 posts
    1/6/2017 10:01 AM
    I agree with Mr. Hoolehan!

    I know personally of at least 2 gentleman that got hired for a Head Pro or D.O.G. position because they were on a list that was acquired directly from the PGA based on qualifications, job requirements etc... Why can't GCSAA perform this same function and to be quite honest I am sick of hearing the arguments against it (sounds like excuses to me).

    There will always be people willing to work for lower pay because they have to. I speak from experience on this point, was laid off in November 2009 due to a course closure and was making a compensation of $100,000. After hitting the interview circuit and being offered a few different positions I landed in a position that paid $49,000. That was the highest paid position that I was offered in a near 6 month job search and most if not all postings said commensurate with experience. In the beginning of my search, I didn't even apply for the lower paying jobs, just the ones that posted a decent salary or commensurate with experience listed, probably a mistake in retrospect. I think for me the take home point is this, salary posting should be required on all postings, I guarantee that no matter what the salary is posted at, guess what? That employer will find a candidate, but it will save a lot of wasted time and frustration on the applicants part.

    I also think somewhere along the way after golf collapsed, in my opinion GCSAA took the easy way out and did not take a real hard look at how they do business and how the needs of the total membership were changing. They have a good revenue stream, because as an organization most of the membership dues are paid by someone's employer, not the actual member! How many members actually pay their own dues or if their employer would not pay their dues would fund their own membership? I know personally the only reason I am a GCSAA member anymore is because my employer pays for it. There are some benefits to membership, networking, website etc...., but would not be a good enough R.O.I. if I was paying personally.

    Ok, I will come off from my soapbox now...............................

    Paul Hallock
    Stoatin Brae Golf Club
    Augusta, MI



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    1/6/2017 12:01 PM
    Matthew Dutkiewicz said: This topic has certainly taken off! Removing the requirement of a posted salary range is one of the symptoms of a potentially larger problem the GCSAA is heading towards. Quantity over quality. The GCSAA's reasoning for removing this requirement is to have more job postings. Ok, I understand the desire to have more postings, but if they are postings that are not informative, and not desirable to Members, it's something that should maybe be re-evaluated, right? For those of you who have heard what your Chapter Delegates have reported from the meeting back in October, there are more of these quantity over quality initiatives on the horizon. Membership drives to make almost anyone a member, which is again, somewhat understandable, as the GCSAA wants to grow and "brand" itself, and become a "player" with other organizations. But to what end? There were proposals of making a few groups who, clearly, have nothing to do with golf course turf, Members of a golf course turf association. I'm not sure what the benefit would be in an initiative like that. Additionally, it does certainly seem as though there has been a shift to focus on the high-end Members, whether its with awards, or publication articles, or Board members/candidates. This may be in an effort towards "branding", but it seems to have struck a chord with many Members who feel left out, ignored, or not appreciated. While these initiatives are certainly aimed at growing Membership numbers, they also seem to have the potential to dilute the quality of the overall association. I think there is an attempt to make the GCSAA a household name in the golf world, and that may or may not be a good thing, but I would hope that for the bulk of the Membership, their purpose for belonging to the association is not forgotten.


    It was interesting to here some of the ideas proposed to help drive membership numbers and some of the reasons behind trying to drive numbers at the Chapter Delegates meeting and some of the debate amongst the delegates and in the candidate break out rooms (among many of the other topics discussed), but upon hearing feedback, I believe the board did not move any of those proposals forward?

    I do have to somewhat disagree with the focus on high-end superintendents and some what quantity over quality. Yes most board members are from higher-end clubs, or for a while even municipal facilities. Why? probably because those facilities have either the staff to fill in while the board member serves, or have time, (like I seem to do, no I'm not announcing a candidacy "a collective sigh of relief is heard", because of their employers attendance/vacation/comp time policies) to volunteer for service. We all have heard of courses that don't have enough staff and it's understandable why we don't really see many of these people at these non "high-end" courses volunteering to serve on the GCSAA board, and even local boards, (although I give props to some of my fellow local board members who have stepped up) As for the awards, I think we see them go to high-end clubs where the superintendent has the time and/or staff to fill out the required paperwork to apply for the awards.

    I actually think with technology the association has made great strides to allow for more involvement from anyone who wants to get involved. Most committee meetings take place from our homes or offices on-line. Education is readily available on-line, and some chapters are working hard to provide education to members, GCSAA checks and approves topics for our chapter all the time so we can try to provide our members the ability to earn and maintain Class A locally and affordably (our little chapter is I think is getting pretty close to achieving this), all parts of the original PDI mission.

    I think it's easy to say things and paint stuff with a broad brush, but we need to look and examine things closer, nothing is ever a black and white issue. Just my opinion.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. James Schmid
    James Schmid avatar
    1 posts
    1/6/2017 2:01 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Jeffrey Whitmire, CGCS said: I remember an interview with Armen Suny saying that his firm would not list jobs with GCSAA when they had the salary requirement. I do not remember the reason for this.


    Anyone refusing to post a position due to compensation requirements is hiding something and possibly ashamed of their compensation structure.


    I would have to disagree with this. Many jobs that get turned over to search firms are advertised without detailed compensation details. in many cases the jobs, once filled turn out to be very well compensated. Not saying that I agree with the method, or have an understanding of why it is handled that way, but from my observation, some jobs posted without detailed compensation information, turn out to pay pretty well.



  5. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/6/2017 6:01 PM
    James Schmid said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Jeffrey Whitmire, CGCS said: I remember an interview with Armen Suny saying that his firm would not list jobs with GCSAA when they had the salary requirement. I do not remember the reason for this.


    Anyone refusing to post a position due to compensation requirements is hiding something and possibly ashamed of their compensation structure.


    I would have to disagree with this. Many jobs that get turned over to search firms are advertised without detailed compensation details. in many cases the jobs, once filled turn out to be very well compensated. Not saying that I agree with the method, or have an understanding of why it is handled that way, but from my observation, some jobs posted without detailed compensation information, turn out to pay pretty well.


    I agree "some" compensation packages are attractive. I have seen it myself. The vast majority of the non-disclosed compensation listings are not attractive. Hence the non-disclosure. Regardless of the motivation for non-disclosure, all are hiding. That is indisputable.



  6. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    1/7/2017 7:01 AM
    So much good info and frustration being posted here. Supportive of all salary being posted for all job postings.

    I do find it interested that nearly all Assistant Superintendent, 2nd Assistants, AITs and more INCLUDE the pay range,( as embarrassing as many are) yet nearly all of the Superintendent postings DO NOT. Is that because we (Superintendents) are the ones posting for the Assistant positions and GM, and Clubs are posting for Superintendent spots?



  7. Peter Bowman
    Peter Bowman avatar
    11 posts
    1/7/2017 8:01 AM
    "By the way, potential applicant, commensurate means what we think is commensurate with your experience, not what you think is. So think about that before you apply. It might not even be commensurate with the area, or with what you're making now.

    We're really not exactly sure ourselves what it means. It's sort of like this..... We want to pay as little as possible for the best guy or gal we can get, but if we post a salary range you might ask for The high end but we think you're worth the low end. Now we both wasted our time.

    So, in the end, we know what we can afford. We just don't want to tell you that now in order to avoid too few or too many applicants. At least we didn't ask you to include salary requirements."



  8. Andrew Cross
    Andrew Cross avatar
    5 posts
    1/9/2017 8:01 AM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    James Schmid said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Jeffrey Whitmire, CGCS said: I remember an interview with Armen Suny saying that his firm would not list jobs with GCSAA when they had the salary requirement. I do not remember the reason for this.


    Anyone refusing to post a position due to compensation requirements is hiding something and possibly ashamed of their compensation structure.


    I would have to disagree with this. Many jobs that get turned over to search firms are advertised without detailed compensation details. in many cases the jobs, once filled turn out to be very well compensated. Not saying that I agree with the method, or have an understanding of why it is handled that way, but from my observation, some jobs posted without detailed compensation information, turn out to pay pretty well.


    I agree "some" compensation packages are attractive. I have seen it myself. The vast majority of the non-disclosed compensation listings are not attractive. Hence the non-disclosure. Regardless of the motivation for non-disclosure, all are hiding. That is indisputable.


    Can I just point out that if you can afford to hire a search firm, you can afford to pay your superintendent very well. Koplin & Kuebler, and Bruce Williams etc are advocates for superintendents and clubs alike, they aren't going to take a search for a club that wants to low ball a superintendent. They also have a reputation at stake.



  9. Mowrey Mark S
    Mowrey Mark S avatar
    1/13/2017 5:01 PM
    Hey everyone, hope this finds all well. I guess I am a little different. I don't have the time or want to risk my position going to an interview to find out the compensation package. This should be a no brainer, post the salary. Save everyone time, nobody wants to go backwards and the ones that don't have a job could interview no matter what. Of course we are behind the PGA, we always have been. I have seen a lot in my 39 yrs. in this industry, retired from it in 2016 and went into another part of the Green Industry,but thinking about getting back into it. It would help if I knew the compensation.
    Mark.



  10. Keith Lamb
    Keith Lamb avatar
    3 posts
    1/18/2017 1:01 PM
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Keith Lamb said:


    ...unless Clay orders him to rough me up.....which I think I could take him anyways.



    Ralph's a formidable foe. He was the 4th grade flash card champ and he juked me out one time in football - that still haunts me.


    Talked to Ralph yesterday. He's counting on you to join him in a 5k he is running the week of the show. He said he would leave the flash cards at home.



  11. Clay Putnam
    Clay Putnam avatar
    33 posts
    1/18/2017 2:01 PM
    Keith Lamb said:
    Clay Putnam, CGCS said:
    Keith Lamb said:


    ...unless Clay orders him to rough me up.....which I think I could take him anyways.



    Ralph's a formidable foe. He was the 4th grade flash card champ and he juked me out one time in football - that still haunts me.


    Talked to Ralph yesterday. He's counting on you to join him in a 5k he is running the week of the show. He said he would leave the flash cards at home.


    Seeing that you have become the ambassador to Ralph and me, please tell Ralph I will not be attending the show this year. I must attend to "important business". However, had my shed-ule allowed me to attend, I would have gladly taken him on in the 5k, AKA, Five Kegger.



  12. Jim Meagher
    Jim Meagher avatar
    1 posts
    3/8/2017 7:03 AM
    I have had two interviews in the last month with private clubs. Neither has posted salary and benefits package. When the topics come up, it starts with what are you getting now? Then the club offers a lower salary and minimal benefits. The benefits are the usual-pesticide license, dues(nat./local), golf, lunch, and some clothing. The best offer was 66% of health insurance; no dental, vision, or retirement. Nothing offered for use of my own phone and vehicle, but you will be have to be "available" and pick up parts/supplies. The next question is what are your expectation? When I have countered with a couple K more than what I am making at my current position, better insurance, and covering expenses for conducting course business; it's like I am the one trying to take advantage of them. So far no job offers.

    I believe OUR association needs to help us out by mandating salaries and benefits to be a part of posting an opening. Turf species, sand vs. push up greens, irrigation, would also be helpful to know. Course history is nice, but it can be found on their web site. At an interview last year, I was informed that the club was going to convert the fairways to Bermuda. I even stated on my resume, "my turf experience is in cool season turf". Ten hour round trip and a night in a hotel. What a waste of time and $.



  13. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    3/8/2017 2:03 PM
    Jim Meagher said:
    I believe OUR association needs to help us out by mandating salaries and benefits to be a part of posting an opening. Turf species, sand vs. push up greens, irrigation, would also be helpful to know. Course history is nice, but it can be found on their web site. At an interview last year, I was informed that the club was going to convert the fairways to Bermuda. I even stated on my resume, "my turf experience is in cool season turf". Ten hour round trip and a night in a hotel. What a waste of time and $.


    Great points Jim. I understand that the top 5-10% jobs might not want to publish their wage scale, but what about the other 90%. Positioning of our "Job Board" for the convenience of the employers spells a lack of confidence in our pool. I believe GCSAA delivers the best pool of potential Superintendents at every level. We should not worry about the 10% on the top or the bottom of the scale. Focus on the 80% that are where the majority of our members work and live. It's better for our members to have more information than less. It's worth it to the employer to have candidates with more information.



  14. James Bluck
    James Bluck avatar
    1 posts
    3/25/2017 10:03 PM
    Do I want to hire someone who is strictly interested in the salary range or do I want to hire someone who wants to live in the area or be a part of my club? I do not post salaries when advertising for assistants or mechanics for this reason alone. I see the value in these positions and I have been able to offer salaries that are greater than the averages found in the compensation survey. I am not trying to hide anything from anyone, I prefer not to weed through the salary chasers.

    I would be troubled to have GCSAA install an additional mandate on how I chose to operate.

    Jim



  15. Anthony Nysse
    Anthony Nysse avatar
    1 posts
    3/27/2017 7:03 AM
    James Bluck, CGCS said: Do I want to hire someone who is strictly interested in the salary range or do I want to hire someone who wants to live in the area or be a part of my club? I do not post salaries when advertising for assistants or mechanics for this reason alone. I see the value in these positions and I have been able to offer salaries that are greater than the averages found in the compensation survey. I am not trying to hide anything from anyone, I prefer not to weed through the salary chasers.

    I would be troubled to have GCSAA install an additional mandate on how I chose to operate.

    Jim


    Unfortunately, having an idea of what one will make plays a huge roll in whether applying or not, know if they will be able to provide for their family.



  16. Sean Hoolehan
    Sean Hoolehan avatar
    0 posts
    3/27/2017 11:03 AM
    James Bluck, CGCS said: Do I want to hire someone who is strictly interested in the salary range or do I want to hire someone who wants to live in the area or be a part of my club? I do not post salaries when advertising for assistants or mechanics for this reason alone. I see the value in these positions and I have been able to offer salaries that are greater than the averages found in the compensation survey. I am not trying to hide anything from anyone, I prefer not to weed through the salary chasers.

    I would be troubled to have GCSAA install an additional mandate on how I chose to operate.

    Jim


    Jim,

    That's great that works for you. I learned a long time ago that pay does not equal work. Salary chasing is a poor strategy for just about any position. Job hopping never looks good on any resume.

    Still why not give our members more information. How does GCSAA know that the employer even knows what is "commensurate with experience" for a given region. We (GCSAA) either believe we have the best network of prospects or we don't. I recently saw a premier private golf course in my area advertise it job opening with both the local chapter and the GCSAA for a new Superintendent. The job notice included lots of information about the club, its history, its environment, its plans, and its salary on the chapter website. It's clear they are looking for an "emerging" Superintendent, not a veteran, and that's OK. Their salary range is in the 50%-75% percentile. My guess is the retiring Superintendent is in the 95% percentile. The only reason I can determine most of this information is because the salary is provided at the chapter level not the GCSAA announcement. The prospective employer likely will receive more inquiries from "salary chasers" at the GCSAA level.



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