sward density vis a vis green speed Cancel The title field is required!

1. Michael Rogers

   

   2 posts
   
   4/25/2018 9:04 AM

   What do you think?
   
   Does a denser ( more plants per square inch or centimeter ) sward increase or decrease green speed?
   
   Un saludo Michael
   
   Marbella Golf Country Club

   
   
   
   
2. Corey Eastwood

   

   80 posts
   
   4/25/2018 10:04 AM

   Dirt is very fast. Not sure that answers your question.

   
   Corey Eastwood CGCS, Stockton Golf & CC, Retired
   
   
3. Michael Wagner

   

   0 posts
   
   4/25/2018 12:04 PM

   I worked under 2 different superintendents each with different schools of thought on this. The first was my dad and he was of the thought the fewer plants the faster the green and we often had greens in the 12 range without too much effort. The other was after my dad retired and he was of the thought the more plants we had that stood up straight the faster the green would be. Although the greens were definitely healthier and greener on a regular basis I would say on average they were slower. We never got to 12 in the 3 years I was under him despite my best efforts. As a superintendent myself now I try to be in the middle of the two. I like a dense canopy but if I have to thin it out to get some speed I will and do often with a verticutter. 2 years ago I had greens rolling at 13.5 for a pro-am event and my membership and the pros were raving about the greens. They were on the thinner side but smooth as could be and I double verticut 2 days before the event. That's my 2 cents.

   
   
   
   
4. Michael Rogers

   

   2 posts
   
   4/25/2018 1:04 PM

   Thanks for replies,
   
   I am brushing with Turf Precision brushes from Chip Howard for the last month or two with Toro Flex 2100´s 5 days per week and Triflex no brushes on weekends at 3mm. My greens roll at around 10.5 average during the day with single cut at 3 mm, no rolling. If I double cut they would be 11.5 or more any day. With brushes, I see faster and smoother with more sward density and so do members and staff.
   
   Want to hear more viewpoints if you guys out there have the time. Thanks Michael

   
   
   
   
5. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   4/26/2018 5:04 AM

   Two thoughts here:
   
   A lean and mean fertility program will keep tissue small therefore providing less friction.
   
   The alternative is additional fertility and fatter leaf blades with a denser stand. The downside is consistency throughout the day as the plants will tend to grow longer by the afternoon rounds. Primo can play a huge role in keeping consistency throughout the day.
   
   I've seen it work both ways, with the latter requiring much more inputs.

   
   
   
   
6. Michael Rogers

   

   2 posts
   
   4/26/2018 8:04 AM

   Hi Andy, we are talking mean and lean with more thin plants. Chip emailed me last night to say with HOC you can get to whatever speed you desire without damaging the plant. Mike Huck calls them groomers with no moving parts.
   TPC Scottsdale 2018
   https://twitter.com/doctorbrush?lang=en
   
   Quail Hollow US PGA 2017
   http://www.gcsaa.tv/view.php?id=3030
   
   Saludos Michael

   
   
   
   
7. Mark Semm

   

   0 posts
   
   4/27/2018 6:04 PM

   Brushing - of any type - will be your friend. Creates a denser, thinner, more upright plant IMO. Better than the old days of using groomers for a number of reasons. We put on the bi-directional groomer on our mowers and brush regularly. Been a game changer being able to brush every day if we want. Weve always brushed but until last year it was using a sweep-n-fill or some other pull behind sweeper.
   
   Not to high jack the thread - but what do you guys consider 'lean & mean' in terms of fertility?
   
   I'd be careful going to 'lean & mean' - find your balance. I've been on some very lean programs which were great in the short run, not so much in the long run. Especially if we ran into any issues on the putting surfaces.

   
   
   
   
8. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   4/28/2018 7:04 AM

   Mark Semm said:
   
   Not to high jack the thread - but what do you guys consider 'lean & mean' in terms of fertility?
   
   I'd be careful going to 'lean & mean' - find your balance. I've been on some very lean programs which were great in the short run, not so much in the long run. Especially if we ran into any issues on the putting surfaces.

   
   
   
   For us, we do weekly tissue testing through Turf Dietitian. We have a number for N tissue content that we feel is comfortable in providing the surfaces we want. To me, the number is on the low end compared to others. For instance, we only applied 3.75#N last year on 14 year old TifDwarf in Central Florida. We've been doing this for a few years now and have seen a decrease in disease issues and improved ball roll. Overall I think the greens look and play better.

   
   
   
   
9. Mark Semm

   

   0 posts
   
   4/28/2018 1:04 PM

   Thanks Andy.
   
   A1/A4 bent here in central TX. right around 1.5#N for the year. Ca, P, and K 4-5X higher. Micros weekly.
   
   Have been higher and lower on bent.
   
   In Austin we had Tif-Eagle. was right around 2.25#N. Same as above with Ca, P, and K. K even a bit higher. Worked for us. Growing season there was 8-9 months usually.

   
   
   
   
10. Charles Lafferty

    

    0 posts
    
    5/2/2018 12:05 PM

    Ever see the stats on oiled sand greens. slow as -----. somewhere in between is good, i have noticed a point of diminishing returns as it pertains to height. You get faster the lower you mow to a certain degree and than you are rolling on stacks and crowns which hold the ball up instead of gently passing the ball to the next blade. I have seen the numbers from greens speeds in the past and hard to believe what we used to play on and what we thought was lightning. Drunken sailors all of us are

    
    
    
    
11. James Smith

    

    112 posts
    
    5/11/2018 6:05 AM

    Tell you about an issue that popped up a few years back on me! I have Tif Eagle and had been mowing a .125" with a good verticutting and topdressing program. well funds got tight so I had to cut back and after we core aerified our greens I went up to .150" as not to scalp our greens. This was in August in Louisiana. after two weeks and rolling and growing them back in we tried to go back down and no matter what we tried we started scalping. I made to call to keep them at .150" until I could verticut them enough to get them down. after another couple of weeks one of my biggest speed jerks came to me bragging about how great and fast they were rolling and how true and smooth they were. he loved them and I never told him my HOC. he continued to tell my about the speeds during the next month in which I had decided if their fast enough for the biggest critic on the course I was not going to mess with them. yes I tested them and they were rolling around 11.5 at the time!
    
    This was at .150" with groomers and no verticutting. they were as thick as I had ever saw them and to be honest were at their best in a long time. no disease, no members complaining, no issues whatsoever. they stayed like that through the winter. I could not reproduce that during the spring though since we went dormant in the cold winter.
    
    This taught me that HOC can make a difference but also being thick and full will roll great also at the higher heights of cut. But it is determined by the conditions at the time of the year.