humic acids vs activated charcoal: Larry Stowell Cancel The title field is required!

1. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   10/25/2016 9:10 AM

   I will once again display my basic ignorance of all things chemical by asking what is likely a stupid question. In hindsight my decision to opt out of HS chemistry for Theater Arts has again come back to haunt me.
   
   The question is: There is increasing interest in the use of Humic Acids up our way due to the pesticide restrictions we face. I have often read about the use of Activated charcoal to deactivate misapplied or contaminated pesticides. My basic understanding is that activated charcoal has a huge surface area that can absorb pesticide residue making them inactive. Humic acids are basically pure carbon of various sizes. The fulvic acids are small enough that they can be taken up directly by the plant while the remaining humic acid components work largely in the soil.
   
   Is there a comparison between activated charcoal and humic acids and if so does the addition of humic acids to a fungicide tank mix inactivate the pesticide in the same way that activated charcoal can?
   
   I may be way of base but it crossed my mind and I'm hoping someone may be able to provide some answers. I put Larry's name in the topic in hopes of drawing him in to this as he seems to have the best understanding of these type of issues. Any and all thoughts would be appreciated

   
   
   
   
2. Max Lamas

   

   0 posts
   
   10/25/2016 11:10 AM

   http://www.egr.msu.edu/~hashsham/course ... C-2010.pdf
   
   http://www.humates.com/pdf/ORGANICMATTERPettit.pdf

   
   
   
   
3. Larry Stowell

   

   0 posts
   
   10/25/2016 4:10 PM

   As you can see in Max's post above, activated charcoal is a strong organic molecule adsorbing material. If you mixed activated charcoal with a humic acid product, some of the humic acids would be adsorbed by the activated charcoal. If you mixed activated charcoal into a spray tank with a pesticide, the charcoal would adsorb some or all of the pesticide.
   
   I doubt that humic acids would adsorb and render pesticides ineffective. In some cases, humic acids have been recommended as a synergist for pesticides.
   
   Over the years, I have become more interested in reduced inputs to help improve facility profitability than in supplements. Humic acids are normal byproducts of plant decomposition in the soil. Addition of humic acid is not needed to provide a healthy environment for turfgrasses. Sure, you might get a little green color response, but is that response worth the investment? Application of humic acids can also stimulate soil microbial activity. But do we really want to stimulate soil microbial activity? I have seen more turf loss from anaerobic conditions resulting from excessive microbial activity than most diseases. If you provide a root zone with good air exchange between the atmosphere and roots, good water movement, managed compaction and minimal fertilizer supplement, turfgrasses will do just fine.

   
   
   
   
4. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   10/25/2016 4:10 PM

   Larry Stowell said: As you can see in Max's post above, activated charcoal is a strong organic molecule adsorbing material. If you mixed activated charcoal with a humic acid product, some of the humic acids would be adsorbed by the activated charcoal. If you mixed activated charcoal into a spray tank with a pesticide, the charcoal would adsorb some or all of the pesticide.
   
   I doubt that humic acids would adsorb and render pesticides ineffective. In some cases, humic acids have been recommended as a synergist for pesticides.
   
   Over the years, I have become more interested in reduced inputs to help improve facility profitability than in supplements. Humic acids are normal byproducts of plant decomposition in the soil. Addition of humic acid is not needed to provide a healthy environment for turfgrasses. Sure, you might get a little green color response, but is that response worth the investment? Application of humic acids can also stimulate soil microbial activity. But do we really want to stimulate soil microbial activity? I have seen more turf loss from anaerobic conditions resulting from excessive microbial activity than most diseases. If you provide a root zone with good air exchange between the atmosphere and roots, good water movement, managed compaction and minimal fertilizer supplement, turfgrasses will do just fine.

   
   Thanks Larry

   
   
   
   
5. Andy Jorgensen

   

   1 posts
   
   10/26/2016 11:10 AM

   Larry Stowell said: As you can see in Max's post above, activated charcoal is a strong organic molecule adsorbing material. If you mixed activated charcoal with a humic acid product, some of the humic acids would be adsorbed by the activated charcoal. If you mixed activated charcoal into a spray tank with a pesticide, the charcoal would adsorb some or all of the pesticide.
   
   I doubt that humic acids would adsorb and render pesticides ineffective. In some cases, humic acids have been recommended as a synergist for pesticides.
   
   Over the years, I have become more interested in reduced inputs to help improve facility profitability than in supplements. Humic acids are normal byproducts of plant decomposition in the soil. Addition of humic acid is not needed to provide a healthy environment for turfgrasses. Sure, you might get a little green color response, but is that response worth the investment? Application of humic acids can also stimulate soil microbial activity. But do we really want to stimulate soil microbial activity? I have seen more turf loss from anaerobic conditions resulting from excessive microbial activity than most diseases. If you provide a root zone with good air exchange between the atmosphere and roots, good water movement, managed compaction and minimal fertilizer supplement, turfgrasses will do just fine.

   
   
   
   Interesting points. We have used humic acid type products to increase CEC's in sandy soils to reduce water and nutrient loss. Are we on the right track? Thoughts?

   
   
   
   
6. Larry Stowell

   

   0 posts
   
   10/26/2016 10:10 PM

   It is hard to argue that application of humic acids won't provide some benefit on newer sand-based greens. I guess the question is whether the benefit is worth the costs? After a few years of turfgrass growth, organic matter accumulation and humate production will be in full swing. Just keep the system adequately aerated (using solid tines) and topdress to help manage organic matter. At that point, I don't see how small applications of humic acids will contribute that much. There is really only one way to find out at your site, conduct a small study.
   
   Why not leave half of a practice green non-treated for a year and find out if there is a change in performance where the humic acids were not applied. Don't just evaluate color, look at putting quality and cost of maintenance. Is the drop in performance (if there is any) sufficient to warrant continued application of the product. This type of trial is commonly known as knockout trial and they are about the easiest type of research you can conduct on a golf course without too much trouble. If you see a negative response by omitting a product from your management program, just put the product back into the program - but take some photographs first - now you have solid justification for using the product or practice in your program when someone asks you why you are using a product or practice.
   
   Here is an example knockout trials https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVfmFIVFkVs

   
   
   
   
7. Ronald Conard

   

   4 posts
   
   10/28/2016 10:10 AM

   Larry Allan said: I will once again display my basic ignorance of all things chemical by asking what is likely a stupid question. In hindsight my decision to opt out of HS chemistry for Theater Arts has again come back to haunt me.
   
   The question is: There is increasing interest in the use of Humic Acids up our way due to the pesticide restrictions we face. I have often read about the use of Activated charcoal to deactivate misapplied or contaminated pesticides. My basic understanding is that activated charcoal has a huge surface area that can absorb pesticide residue making them inactive. [u">Humic acids are basically pure carbon of various sizes.[/u"> The fulvic acids are small enough that they can be taken up directly by the plant while the remaining humic acid components work largely in the soil.
   
   Is there a comparison between activated charcoal and humic acids and if so does the addition of humic acids to a fungicide tank mix inactivate the pesticide in the same way that activated charcoal can?
   
   I may be way of base but it crossed my mind and I'm hoping someone may be able to provide some answers. I put Larry's name in the topic in hopes of drawing him in to this as he seems to have the best understanding of these type of issues. Any and all thoughts would be appreciated

   
   
   
   Hey Red did you skip out during organic chem or is this standard Penn State stuff?

   
   
   
   
8. Larry Allan

   

   0 posts
   
   10/28/2016 1:10 PM

   Like I said Theater Arts instead of Chem in High School
   
   Even though I got a 3.93 at Penn, I must have slept through any talk of organic chemistry. I did quite well in the etiquette class though. I still know a salad fork from a regular one.