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Cutless

16 posts
  1. Brian Barnes
    Brian Barnes avatar
    0 posts
    10/18/2012 8:10 AM
    I have never tried Cutless before and was wondering how many of you use it, and the results you are seeing. I am in Illinois on bentgrass greens. I am on the Primo program now, spraying every 200 GDDs.
    My questions are,
    How long are you seeing growth suppression?
    Are you using it through the heat of the summer?
    Are you seeing the reduced Poa populations?
    Your help is appreciated!
    Thanks



  2. Border Ricky H
    Border Ricky H avatar
    10/18/2012 9:10 AM
    Yes, I use it on bentgrass A series greens. Rates are 7-10 oz/acre every other week (watered in very important). I start after second or third mowing and use till we get a heavy frost. Growth is very consistent through the season, and if more growth is needed (aeration) just increase nutrition inputs. Poa populations are down from the 20% range to the 3-5% range in two seasons and have kinda leveled out for the past three seasons. I use it on greens, tees, and f-ways. Love it. I have not used primo at all on bengrass surfaces for five seasons now.



  3. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    10/18/2012 11:10 AM
    I know a few guys here will use it, they mix it with their Primo (well I thought they did), which surprises me as Brian waters the Cutless in and is Primo suppose to be watered in (Brian, it sounds like you don't use Primo at all)? I don't water in my Primo because I don't want to water off my fungicide and foliar fertilizer. Anyway I'm getting sidetracked. The guys I know will spray every 14 days and will adjust their Cutless and Primo during the season. I don't have any experience with Cutless.

    Thanks, Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  4. Border Ricky H
    Border Ricky H avatar
    10/19/2012 8:10 AM
    Primo is not supposed to watered in it is absorbed through the leaves the cutless is absorbed via roots. Every other week the cutless goes out with other products that need to be watered in and the opposite weeks products go out that need to dry on the plant. This means greens get sprayed every week one "wet" spray and then a "dry" spray.



  5. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    10/19/2012 10:10 AM
    Ricky Border said: Primo is not supposed to watered in it is absorbed through the leaves the cutless is absorbed via roots. Every other week the cutless goes out with other products that need to be watered in and the opposite weeks products go out that need to dry on the plant. This means greens get sprayed every week one "wet" spray and then a "dry" spray.


    Thanks Ricky, in that regard I'm basically spraying the same amount by doing my primo at the 200 gdd program. I do spray things that don't or shouldn't be watered in with my Primo.

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  6. Dustin Riley
    Dustin Riley avatar
    8 posts
    10/19/2012 1:10 PM
    Ricky Border said: Primo is not supposed to watered in it is absorbed through the leaves the cutless is absorbed via roots. Every other week the cutless goes out with other products that need to be watered in and the opposite weeks products go out that need to dry on the plant. This means greens get sprayed every week one "wet" spray and then a "dry" spray.


    I've tank mixed primo w/Cutless or Primo w/Trimmit and alternate mixes at 2-week schedule or ~300 gdd for several years. This application will also include soluble fert Fe &/or AMS or Urea or Umaxx or and wetting agent. It is allowed to dry and is watered in heavy that night. I keep the Primo rate the same all season long (5 oz/A) and adjust the Cutless or Trimmit to match my desired agressiveness.

    I prefer the regulation of Trimmit on the Poa. I also prefer the gentleness of Cutless on my Bluegrass green surrounds. So by alternating, I get best of both worlds. Very consistent regulation once into 2 application. No rebound growth. I will be trying Musketeer next season, but I lose the flexibility of individual pgr rates.

    I've suffered some discoloration if frost develops while under regulation. Nothing to really worry about as the turf recovered fine, but not ideal.



  7. Border Ricky H
    Border Ricky H avatar
    10/19/2012 1:10 PM
    Great minds think alike Dustin. That sounds alot like what I used to do. About five seasons I dropped out Primo and have had more of an effect on poa population reduction.



  8. Brian Barnes
    Brian Barnes avatar
    0 posts
    10/23/2012 7:10 AM
    Thanks for all the replies. I think I will try the Cutless program in the spring and maybe work in a few Trimmit apps as the year progresses.



  9. Keith Fellenstein
    Keith Fellenstein avatar
    0 posts
    10/23/2012 7:10 PM
    Someone please clue me in...as I understand it, Trimmit and Cutless are essentially the same regulator...why would you want to apply both at the same time? I have had great success with both individually--consistent growth suppression, and both help to reduce poa populations if used correctly. Recently, I've used Primo in the summer months in addition to the Cutless for even better control without significant risk to the Bent. I prefer to apply all individually so I can control the rates. Not a big fan of the pre-packaged combos. What you gain in convenience, you lose in contol. I'm interested to see if Musketeer has a benefit or if its just another marketing game.



  10. Border Ricky H
    Border Ricky H avatar
    10/24/2012 6:10 AM
    You are correct Keith cutless active is fluiprimodol and trimmit is paclobutrazol (not 100% on spelling of either).
    But as I understand the mode of action is very much the same, and some folks may mistakenly use the trade names interchangeably. Which would be a mistake of mine in my previous posts on this subject. I use a paclobutrazol product which is produced as a generic. George would be giving me a hard time for making such a mistake, we all should use the actives so we are clear as to what we are talking about. So maybe Brian may need to do a bit more research to find a program that works for him and his goals.



  11. Dustin Riley
    Dustin Riley avatar
    8 posts
    10/24/2012 7:10 AM
    Keith Fellenstein said: Someone please clue me in...as I understand it, Trimmit and Cutless are essentially the same regulator...why would you want to apply both at the same time? I have had great success with both individually--consistent growth suppression, and both help to reduce poa populations if used correctly. Recently, I've used Primo in the summer months in addition to the Cutless for even better control without significant risk to the Bent. I prefer to apply all individually so I can control the rates. Not a big fan of the pre-packaged combos. What you gain in convenience, you lose in contol. I'm interested to see if Musketeer has a benefit or if its just another marketing game.


    Good morning Keith,

    Yes, both Paclo (Trimmit) and Flurpr (Cutless) are similar. They both regulate all grass species (bent and Poa) however, bent isn't affected for as long as Poa is. Therefore, at day 14+ the bentgrass will begin to grow at an accelerated rate while the Poa is still regulated. Hence the conversion capability. In my experience, Trimmit is a little more aggressive to the turf compared to Cutless at the SAME product rate, 8 oz/A. I like this aggressiveness of Trimmit on the Poa and don't mind it on the bent. However, repeated applications really weaken my bluegrass surrounds. Cutless doesn't and in order to get the reaction to my Poa, I needed to continue to increase rates and it gets expensive. By alternating the products, I keep hammering the Poa, but it the bluegrass surrounds have held up good. The weird benefit I find is that green speeds seem to bump up a little more following a trimmit application vs a cutless appl. Therefore my rotation is scheduled to position a Trimmit/Primo application 5-7 days prior to the bigger events.

    Per Musketeer, convenience is not a factor. I prefer to have individual control. Just trying it to see if I'll see the same benefits as what I'm currently seeing and maybe saving a little $$.



  12. Keith Fellenstein
    Keith Fellenstein avatar
    0 posts
    10/24/2012 9:10 AM
    Dustin--I understand rotating Trimmit and Cutless for costs, and agree the Cutless is less harsh on Bent, but given they are essentially interchangeable, what is the benefit to putting them in the tank at the same time (like in Musketeer)? That doesn't make sense to me...at least not yet. I'm not buying it (yet) so I'd like to hear from Musketeer users. What does it do for you that Legacy, or Trimmit/Primo doesn't? Legacy makes sense because Cutless and Primo work differently. But, I prefer to control the rates and timing by going Cutless one week and Primo the next.



  13. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    10/24/2012 10:10 AM
    So to see if I understand correctly rotating the Trimmit and Cutless you are going after both growth regulation and poa reduction, spraying basically on a 7 day schedule? If not worrying about the poa, wouldn't spraying Primo on the 200 gdd program be similar, especially in the summer when Primo is running out at about 7 days?

    I guess the other questions are, do you put a fungicide application on your rotations, or on every other application? And what might the cost be? I guess I can get a price on both Trimmit and Cutless and figure that one out myself.

    Thanks!

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

  14. Dustin Riley
    Dustin Riley avatar
    8 posts
    10/24/2012 1:10 PM
    Keith Fellenstein said: Dustin--I understand rotating Trimmit and Cutless for costs, and agree the Cutless is less harsh on Bent, but given they are essentially interchangeable, what is the benefit to putting them in the tank at the same time (like in Musketeer)? That doesn't make sense to me...at least not yet. I'm not buying it (yet) so I'd like to hear from Musketeer users. What does it do for you that Legacy, or Trimmit/Primo doesn't? Legacy makes sense because Cutless and Primo work differently. But, I prefer to control the rates and timing by going Cutless one week and Primo the next.


    OK, got your question. Sorry for repeating a prior post.

    My hopes are that the reduced paclo + flurp rates within Musketeer will combine to hammer the poa, yet still be gentle on my bluegrass banks. That's what I'm hoping and the reasoning for my test. Normally it's cheaper to tank mix separately, but I bought Musketeer through a promotional deal and overall was less expensive to try the combo product. I had one appl down this fall on greens, but frost arrived early and was not able to make a follow-up application. To early to tell.

    Mel,
    PGRs + Foliars + Wetting Agents are sprayed on a 14-day schedule June-Sept. Fungicides are either curative or on the alterating week at a 14-day schedule. So, in other words week 1= PGR mix; week 2 = Fungicide; Week 3 PGR mix; Week 4 Fungicide.



  15. Keith Fellenstein
    Keith Fellenstein avatar
    0 posts
    10/25/2012 10:10 AM
    Melvin Waldron, CGCS said: So to see if I understand correctly rotating the Trimmit and Cutless you are going after both growth regulation and poa reduction, spraying basically on a 7 day schedule? If not worrying about the poa, wouldn't spraying Primo on the 200 gdd program be similar, especially in the summer when Primo is running out at about 7 days?

    I guess the other questions are, do you put a fungicide application on your rotations, or on every other application? And what might the cost be? I guess I can get a price on both Trimmit and Cutless and figure that one out myself.

    Thanks!

    Mel


    Mel--I find Trimmit and Cutless more consistent and longer control, even in the summer (higher gdd number) and effective on limiting poa. If you have poa, you can reduce your populations, and if you don't, it helps keep it out. Primo is excellent for conditioning the plant for stress and gives me that added consistency for my Cutless applications, but on its own, I didn't see the level of regulation I did with the Cutless or Trimmit by themselves. Usually week A - Cutless + Fert + wet agent - watered in / week B - Primo + Foliar Fert + Fungicide - allowed to dry (unless the fungicide needs to be watered in, then it goes out with the Cutless).



  16. Melvin Waldron
    Melvin Waldron avatar
    43 posts
    10/25/2012 11:10 AM
    Thanks Dustin and Keith, Gives me some ideas to work with tweaking my program for next season.

    Any other ideas and suggestions much appreciated.

    Thanks!

    Mel

    Melvin H. Waldron III, CGCS, Horton Smith Golf Course, City of Springfield/Greene County MO

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